Habitat - Indoor :: Undergravel/power filter combo.

[Nosetotail]

Yes I said it. GRAVEL GRAVEL GRAVEL.



But give me a chance before you pull out the flame throwers. I'm new at this and joined recently for help with a sick hatchling RES. He passed on and my wife and I decided to try again with a couple of hatchling False Maps. After seeing these two behave, I can say with a lot of certainty that the RES was doomed before we got him.

Anyway thanks to your helpful advice, I quickly got my setup up to par. I have a small beginner setup with a few river rocks on the bottom, a basking platform and another dry spot away from the light, a decent power filter with a large river rock to break up and cascade the waterfall, and a heater. Right now, I have about 6 gallons of total water at about 7 inches deep.



My question is concerning my next setup for when these babies outgrow this one. I have been researching turtle filtration and tank setup a little, and the two themes I have run across are that turtles are messy with a high bio load, and that they eat gravel. However I have always entertained the notion that an under gravel filter could be highly effective and almost self sustaining for quite some time if it was powered by a good power filter with effective mechanical filtration.

Last night I ran across this http://www.turtlepuddle.org/health/smal ... ilter.html , and became inspired by the claims of how effective it can be. In short the author claims he has almost unbelievable success with turtle filtration using a Magnum 350 to power an undergravel filter. If at first glance you are concerned about the turtle eating gravel, no worries. I figure that the gravel eating problem is a simple fix. I could either just place another under gravel plate over the gravel, or custom make a bottom out of plexiglass with a lot of holes drilled in it. With the second option, I would be able to make a much tighter fit, and have larger holes for the raw waste to fit through. It may at first sound a little unsightly, but if this setup works, then there wouldn't be a problem with me covering this bottom with other stuff.

So, I'm throwing this idea out there for some scrutiny. Also, I'm wondering about different canister filters to consider. From the reviews, I'm gathering that the Magnum 350 is a great design that suffers a little from the need to be affordable. I really haven't shopped anymore than checking the reviews on the 350, and I really like the idea of the water polishing filter. So I'm wondering what you think about the 350 and what some other good options are for canister filters that aren't too terribly expensive, but work well and are durable.

I would particularly like to hear from anyone who has tried this, or perhaps something similar, and whether it works, or if it could perhaps lead to disaster.

[sflemin2]

What size tank will you upgrade to? Here is what I read on False Maps (which I know nothing about)

"Recommended size for a single adult Graptemys pseudogeographica pseudogeographica would be a 30 gallon aquarium as a minimum (40 or larger preferred) for males, and a 75 gallon aquarium as a minimum (90 or larger preferred) for females. This will provide adequate swimming area, as well as assisting the filtration in maintaining good water quality. For additional Graptemys pseudogeographica pseudogeographica, I would recommend adding 20 gallons of tank space for additional males and 50 gallons of tank space per additional female at a minimum.

Stock Tanks and Rubbermaid containers also work well. The same space recommendations remain the same."

I have a 150 gallon for my 2 full grown female RES and have been pleased with the Fluval 305. The bigger the tank, the more expensive the filter..but also the LESS maintenance. I have found that the more expensive filters are typically worth the money.

[Love of Animals]

The guy in the link above obviously doesn't know the proper husbandry for turtles if he has a 6 in turtle in a 30 gallon tank only half filled.

[Nosetotail]

What size tank will you upgrade to?...

We are very limited in space right now, and have to prioritize a little. Right now, the sweater box I am using fits on my son's dresser with a little bit of room on either side. I will have to do some measuring to figure out what my next step will be. I know it might not fit perfectly, but I'm leaning toward trying to make a 20 long work in the same spot. I'll probably go ahead and spring for the larger size filter though with the plan to be able to upgrade when necessary. By that time, the larger turtles will be more of a priority and we will find a space for them

The guy in the link above obviously doesn't know the proper husbandry for turtles if he has a 6 in turtle in a 30 gallon tank only half filled.

Well I also wondered about his explanation on turtles and gravel. It was pseudo science based on a little research that turtles do seek gravel in the wild. When we picked up the turtles from the store yesterday, there was a hatchling in the tank picking up rocks and spitting them out as fast as he could find them. He was hungry, and I don't think he really cared about what size the stones were. The author claims that the problem with gravel in captivity is that it is often not small enough for the turtles to swallow safely, so they are forced to settle for big ones. I think I'll take my chances not giving them either option.


With that said, I'm still convinced that the best way to filter waste from a tank is to draw it straight down from the position that it lands, and I do believe that a powered undergravel filter is naturally the best design for this. I find myself everyday spending a lot of time sucking pieces of waste and food out with a turkey baster. Unfortunately, I know myself, and I will most likely get lazy with this. I know it won't be sooner, but later for certain. Anyway, I'm going to have to make myself a mini siphon cleaner. That way, I can clean the tank and do mini water changes daily.

[slider_keeper]

There was a guy on the west coast that use to sell very large setups in the 125 gal to 500 gal range and he ran a undergravel setup for his turtles and big fish. Apparently it was very effective I knew of the shop for about ten years and the tanks were some of the cleaniest I ever saw! I mean spotless. So it can be done;) But the systems were kinda expensive to be effective I do remember that big powerheads and such.

[VeipaCray]

You cannot clean an undergravel filter. Every time you take the gravel out you kill the nitrifying bacteria colony. If your turtle digs in the gravel, you release any trapped detrius in the gravel. Which means you release a severe ammonia spike. Even with a plate or mesh or whatever on top of the gravel it will get very dirty and very smelly. Undergravel filters were good technology in the 70's and 80's. So were cassette tapes and tv's with rabbit ears.

The magnum 350 is garbage. Again, a filter who's design hasn't changed in 25 years. The media basket is small, the ONLY mechanical filtration you get is from the blue foam sleeve (which clogs fast) and yes the micron polishing pad is great. Only, you don't need water polishing on a regular basis for a turtle environment. This filter is noisy, and leaks a TON when you go to clean it and it needs to be cleaned often. The 350 is also often difficult to restart. I just threw a magnum 350 in the trash after putting up with it for 15+ years. yes they do run forever... but that's not saying much when you compare it to it's downfalls.

Why not just get a decent cainster filter. You can get a magnum 350 for $100 and a Rena XP3 for $120. You could even get a knock off generic filter from aquatraders for $60.

The XP3 and magnum 350 are both rated at 350 GPH. The XP3 is silent, the Magnum isn't. The XP3 holds a TON of media, the Magnum doesn't. The XP3 comes with media, the magnum doesn't. The XP3 has plenty of mechanical filtration the Magnum doesn't. The XP3 puts all of your filtration outside your tank, leaving more space in your tank and making your tank and your filtration easier to clean. The undergravel filter will be a PITA to clean, and the magnum leaks. Don't believe for a minute that you'll set it and forget it with the undergravel filter.

Factor in the cost of the undergravel filter and parts, the XP3 is the same price as the Magnum 350 + undergravel filter. Call it $130 for each.

As for the direction of filtering waste... your turtles will move the waste around and put it back into the water column from time to time where a canister filter can grab it. Under gravel filters just get gunked up with waste that takes forever to break down.

WHY NOT get the XP3?

Also if you're doing research on turtle filtration. I'd START with this forum. This topic has been covered hundreds of times.
Most everyone with a large turtle setup (you'll need one eventually) has a canister filter. A good canister filter. XP3/4, FX5, Eheim...etc. Why? because they work really well. If undergravel filters worked so well...we'd all still use them. You can get very very good biological filtration in a canister on ceramic or spun glass bio media. Why even consider using the undergravel filter instead? I stopped using an undergravel filter in the early 80s. It was garbage back then and it's not any better now.

With a canister filter, you won't be doing mini water changes daily. You'd be doing monthly or bi-monthly 10% water changes to remove nitrates and 5 minutes worth of canister filter maintenance during your water change.

why attempt to reinvent the wheel?

[Nosetotail]

To be fair to the set up, this is a relatively small aquarium with a 350 gph powerhead. I have always thought UGFs were flawed due to the very slow current that moves through them. With a strong powerhead, the function of the UGF can become enhanced making it a dual purpose bio filter with the ability to actually facilitate removing waste. Now I'm well aware that they are fundamentally design flawed in this area however that is another subject. With the enhanced water flow through the UGF, much more of the broken down waste will be removed from the tank.

Yes I know about the gunkyness of traditional UGF's, but I do believe if the design flaws are dealt with, this overwhelming gunkyness will become a thing of the past.

So here are a few things I have been considering. The flow rate through the filter should be considered first. This naturally means using an even larger powerhead than what you would with just a canister setup. Also, gravel size should be a consideration. The goal here is the fastest water flow rate through any cross section between any given particle. I have considered this quite a bit, but can't seem to figure out if this means smaller or larger particles. Obviously if you had sand, the actual flow rate between particles will be severely diminished, however if you have very large stones, I think the total surface area of water will be much greater and thus lend to a lower flow rate at any cross section. With that said, I'm seriously leaning toward large gravel as being the best for this, or perhaps even small bio rings. This will provide for ample bio media while allowing the most waste to move through the filter. As far as the density of the actual plate, I believe that as long as it doesn't impede the total flow rate, then small slits will be fine, as this will only allow the smallest of particles to pass through which will lend to these being picked up by the filter. Also, I feel that if there is less space between the plate and the floor, then the current will increase under the plate, also enhancing the waste pickup.

I agree with the author that the filter depth does need to be deep to allow for plenty of bio filtration, and with the bio filter established, the need to consider a bio media in the canister is not that high. Rather, better mechanical filtration would seem to be important. However I still like the idea of bio wheels, simply for exposing so much more of the tank water to air.

I disagree that UGFs are yesterday's technology. I just feel they were never used the right way. I don't disagree that canisters are the best way to go, however I just can't get comfortable with the pickup not being able to cover the whole bottom of the tank where all of the initial solid waste ends up.

To be clear, I'm not seeking the best bio filter here, however I'm interested in the best method of collecting all of the waste and moving it out of the tank without having to continuously work at it. Also one factor you have not considered here is the tremendous difference in having a large amount of well oxygenated water pass through the media versus having a much lower flow rate, approaching stagnation in the filter media.

If we didn't reinvent the wheel, then we wouldn't have rubber tires right now, or bicycles,

or monstertrucks.

[VeipaCray]

If you want the cleanest tank possible. Go bare bottom. Period. A good canister filter and bare bottom tank will keep the bottom of your tank spotless. The water current keeps the solid waste moving around where the filter has a chance to grab it.

If you don't want to go bare bottom, but still want a clean tank. Use sand. Sand packs so tight the waste doesn't get into it. The waste sits on top of the sand where again the water current and your turtle's movement kick any waste back into the water column. Turtles that ingest sand can pass it naturally. Many of us use sand as a substrate.

Since the undergravel filter is such good technology... everyone using one rasie your hand...
...*crickets chirping*...
That's what I thought. No one uses them because the biological + mechanical filtration of a canister does such a thorough job.
Combine that with the ease of cleaning and no powerheads+mess in your tank and you don't really have much of a choice to make.

However if you'd like to install an 8 track player in your BMW, I really cannot stop you. It's your car.

[Nosetotail]

I'm assuming this is a friendly message board, and I do in fact appreciate your advice and take it seriously, but the overtly sarcastic illustrations are really putting a negative shadow on your posts, and you are killing my thread.

[happycamper]

I like sand

[Diamondbacks4Life]

I will put my thoughts into this. This combo is really one of the best combos you can have and many people who keep fish use this. Just one thing needs to be changed. Now will the gravel part still no no for turtles but i not sure about your plate idea and how that would work.

Now the thing that just needs to be changed is the output connects to the plastic plate part and intake stays like normal. With the output being sent under the gravel it always makes a flow of water go up. It then never allows waste etc. to set at the bottom because current is always being pushed up but like i said this is really great for fish tank setups for keeping them really clean but you have to find a way around the gravel with turtles.

[psumichael]

I'm assuming this is a friendly message board, and I do in fact appreciate your advice and take it seriously, but the overtly sarcastic illustrations are really putting a negative shadow on your posts, and you are killing my thread.

It is a friendly forum and VeipaCray is a great contributor. He/she has been very helpful to me so I was a little surprised at the sarcastic tone too but considering his/her usual responses I would suggest brushing that aside.

Can't really put in a vote for an undergravel filter. This guy actually has the opposite type of setup and I would go this route before trying to pull waste through the gravel. Just my opinion.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLBwGTBSI-s[/youtube]

Can say from experience though that sand substrate with an exterior wet/dry trickle filter works great.

[slider_keeper]

If you want the cleanest tank possible. Go bare bottom. Period. A good canister filter and bare bottom tank will keep the bottom of your tank spotless. The water current keeps the solid waste moving around where the filter has a chance to grab it.

If you don't want to go bare bottom, but still want a clean tank. Use sand. Sand packs so tight the waste doesn't get into it. The waste sits on top of the sand where again the water current and your turtle's movement kick any waste back into the water column. Turtles that ingest sand can pass it naturally. Many of us use sand as a substrate.

Since the undergravel filter is such good technology... everyone using one rasie your hand...
...*crickets chirping*...
That's what I thought. No one uses them because the biological + mechanical filtration of a canister does such a thorough job.
Combine that with the ease of cleaning and no powerheads+mess in your tank and you don't really have much of a choice to make.

However if you'd like to install an 8 track player in your BMW, I really cannot stop you. It's your car.

Ummmm... sorry but I said it once already! I have witnessed some setups very well keep with UGF's. Now, I use a FX5 but I'm not gonna shoot down a idea because of a outcome from the past! If you look at history it always repeats itself, with a better outcome sometimes.... It's called innovation! I would love to see a ugf setup that works because it is something different. The spruce goose wasn't suppose to fly, right? Well Howard Hughes got that one right. I say go with your ideas and see where they take you! If all else fails you can say you tried and just buy a canister filter. It's what you want to get out of keeping a turtle, not what the gal or guy next to you does!

[Nosetotail]

^ If I go with this setup, I plan on using a decent canister filter to power the UGF, so if it doesn't work out, I'll still have the canister filter.

I will put my thoughts into this. This combo is really one of the best combos you can have and many people who keep fish use this. Just one thing needs to be changed. Now will the gravel part still no no for turtles but i not sure about your plate idea and how that would work.

Now the thing that just needs to be changed is the output connects to the plastic plate part and intake stays like normal. With the output being sent under the gravel it always makes a flow of water go up. It then never allows waste etc. to set at the bottom because current is always being pushed up but like i said this is really great for fish tank setups for keeping them really clean but you have to find a way around the gravel with turtles.

I certainly didn't expect this configuration, but it does make some sense. After I saw your post, I google imaged UGF's and sure enough this set up was shown. So you are suggesting that the waste will only fall part of the way into the UGF until it is broken down to small enough pieces to be pushed back out by the current, rather than be drug down while it is heavier and then just rest on the bottom of the tank.






psumichael...Uhhmmmmm Yeah. I wish I could be that dedicated. This guy obviously puts a tremendous amount of thought into things, and I'm guessing his water is of the highest quality. I watched it on mute last night and then again with sound this afternoon. I was really surprised when I just realized his tank in the closet was a dedicated botanical filter.

[richieboy]

I saw posts with this guy who attached the intake of his canister to a series of pvc pipes with holes in them underneath river rock. You might wanna check that out. Search for under gravel cleaning system.