General Care Discussion

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:17 am **Horrible article being praised by rescues**

Please take the time to comment on this e-magazine's post (if you scroll down you'll see the article about turtles https://www.facebook.com/PetBusinessMagazine), as rescues are actually re-posting it and it has dangerous information in it. One of the rescues actually blocked me and deleted my comments, with the excuse that the article is for pet stores and this is basically better than nothing for stores.

Some of the flaws I noticed are:

"Most of them require enough space to swim comfortably and a spot to bask and dry, which translates roughly to a 10-gallon tank for hatchlings and juveniles, and a 30- to 50-gallon tank for adults."

A 30 gallon tank is NOT sufficient for an adult, and 50 gallons is pretty small, as well.

"I consider a UV light helpful but not absolutely essential for most species."

This one is so horribly incorrect I cannot believe that turtle rescues are reposting it. All of you on this site know that UV lights are essential for healthy growth.

"Most turtles have evolved in the wild as combination predators and scavengers, and they primarily want freshly killed, whole, vertebrate prey. In captive situations, this translates to freshly killed or frozen goldfish or mice, halved to provide an enticing scent in the water...Most water turtle species will also eat vegetable matter as a small percentage of their diet. To that end, I will occasionally throw into the tank some leafy greens or, much to the turtles’ delight, melon rinds."

Hatchlings need a protein heavy diet, but juveniles and adults should NOT be eating a diet primarily comprised of meat. They should mostly be eating vegetables and only getting meat a couple of times a week.

"However, most American water turtles and many foreign species will cohabit nicely. I have successfully mixed many kinds of sidenecks, cooters, sliders, map, mud and musk turtles, and they have thrived together without issue for years."

They say NOTHING about how aggressive RES are and how they will start fighting other turtles of the same or other species constantly as they age.

This article has unbelievably been reposted by:
https://www.facebook.com/TucsonRedEaredSlidersRes?ref=stream
https://www.facebook.com/TurtleRescueLongIsland

The other two rescues that I commented to took the article down. Lil RESq and Audrey RES (they're both run by the same rescue), blocked me from commenting, deleted my comments, and posted on their "shares":

Please remember that this article was written in a pet business magazine for pet businesses. It's to show stores that sell turtles that they should take more responsibility in what they sell to make sure their clients are well informed on how big and how much work us turtles actually get. I know it doesn't talk about the best care for turtles like us, but it's a starting point for change in stores

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that it's a good reason to repost that at all. "Some" bad "improvements" are just as bad as leaving things the way they are. These are the rescues that blocked and deleted me:
https://www.facebook.com/audreyres
https://www.facebook.com/Littleresq.

If you guys agree that it's fine because it's a step in the right direction for pet stores, that's fine, and please don't think that I'm saying that it's wrong. I just am so upset that rescues, especially Lil Res'q and Audrey, who both posts pictures of Audrey all the time (she's the terribly deformed turtle that spent her life in a bucket eating egg whites), would even repost it, because their fans and people going to their pages ARE NOT pet stores and reading the article, it doesn't say anything about it only being "a step in the right direction"; it makes it sound conclusively like this guy has the best set-up. I'm even more frustrated that they deleted my comments and blocked me from their page, before adding the little thing to their link about it being good for pet stores. My fiance is watching me sob on Skype because I'm so angry that a rescue would post something like this, because it's just so irresponsible, especially without introducing with their comment about it being a good change for pet stores; how many people actually bother to look at the comments section on Facebook? I just have a bleeding heart, and the idea of all of these turtles suffering because of greed tears at me. I feel like rescues should universally condemn pet stores, not praise them for anything. But anyway, my point is just that I wasn't trying to ruffle anybody's feathers; I'm just so frustrated by the whole thing.

By condemning pet stores, I just mean that even if this article is a step in the right direction, this pet store owner is passing on this information to its customers. Oh, well. I feel stupid for being so upset. Have a good night, everybody.

This is just a bunch of generic info... with stock photos. Wether or not this is a "right step"... there is still a long way to go. There isn't even a mention that Federal laws state that any turtle under 4 inches cannot be sold or distributed in the US.

I think it's very wrong that your post was deleted and that was an overreaction though TucsonRedEaredSlidersRes seems to have corrected themselves.

Still better then what some places tell you. Since the article isnt about solely res. Its alright i guess.

I thought the cohabitation part was fine. They did warn to watch them. I find turtles house better with a different species. I had super aggressive painted and super aggressive slider. All fine when housed with other species. Alot of people have done fine. I feel nothing wrong with it.

adbritta wrote:If you guys agree that it's fine because it's a step in the right direction for pet stores, that's fine, and please don't think that I'm saying that it's wrong. I just am so upset that rescues, especially Lil Res'q and Audre

adbritta had you been more diplomatic in your response you would not have been banned. Instead you posted a rude and personal attack directed at me for even posting the article. Then before I could even respond, you did the same to Audrey.

I've written articles on turtle care, I'm a speaker at animal care events and a staple at reptile expos in Canada. I know the article didn't talk about the best care but as I said it's a step, be it small, in the right direction. I've had over 800 turtles come through the rescue in 5 YEARS. I have 120 right now, and 100 on a waiting list to come in. If pet stores would MAN UP and take more responsibility for what they sell to people that number would be much less.

I'm sorry you're upset but be an adult and word your responses on other peoples pages a little more carefully next time.

Earlier, I had re-posted an article taken from Pet Business regarding turtles in the pet trade without reading the article. Thanks to Alyssha for contacting me and asking me to read the whole article. I did and found it to be full of inaccuracies and misinformation and so I took the post off my wall. You can find the proper care tips and recommendations in previous posts.

As for you, Marc; although I'm so undiplomatic and made a "rude" and "personal attack" on your page, the other rescues seem to have found my comment helpful and, even though they received the exact same message as you, were in no way offended. If anything, you are attacking me, but as a law student, I'm quite used to people deflecting their shame, failures, and anger by attempting to turn the conversation around to my "flaws". The only "personal" remark I made towards you was to inquire whether you had read the article or merely skimmed it, which was in no way a rude attack; often people, including myself, will re-post things without reading them in depth. I disagree that this is a "step in the right direction" for pet stores, and I find it irresponsible to post the article, given that the owner is clearly giving the same incorrect information to his customers. As a rescue, I assumed that your aim would be to discuss the misinformation in the article so that people considering purchasing a turtle who come to your page as a resource would have the most accurate, well-articulated facts as possible.

If you wish to discuss the merits of the article instead of demonstrating your "power" by banning me from a Facebook page, then please do so. Otherwise, I'm quite finished feeding the trolls.

Just for clarity, this is exactly what I said to on each page, copied from my comment on Turtle Rescue of Long Island's page.

Please DO NOT perpetuate the misinformation in this article, as much of it can lead to health problems and potentially early death. I know that you are knowledgeable about turtles and probably would have caught the errors upon close reading, but probably just skimmed it. Some of the errors are: "Most of them require enough space to swim comfortably and a spot to bask and dry, which translates roughly to a 10-gallon tank for hatchlings and juveniles, and a 30- to 50-gallon tank for adults." A 30 gallon tank is NOT sufficient for an adult, and 50 gallons is pretty small, as well. "I consider a UV light helpful but not absolutely essential for most species." Again, this is horrible advice. Turtles must have proper UVB lighting for their health; without it, their shells can become deformed and they won't shed as they need to. "Most turtles have evolved in the wild as combination predators and scavengers, and they primarily want freshly killed, whole, vertebrate prey. In captive situations, this translates to freshly killed or frozen goldfish or mice, halved to provide an enticing scent in the water...Most water turtle species will also eat vegetable matter as a small percentage of their diet. To that end, I will occasionally throw into the tank some leafy greens or, much to the turtles’ delight, melon rinds." Hatchlings need a protein heavy diet, but juveniles and adults should NOT be eating a diet primarily comprised of meat. They should mostly be eating vegetables and only getting meat a couple of times a week. "However, most American water turtles and many foreign species will cohabit nicely. I have successfully mixed many kinds of sidenecks, cooters, sliders, map, mud and musk turtles, and they have thrived together without issue for years." They say NOTHING about how aggressive RES are and how they will start fighting other turtles of the same or other species constantly as they age.

https://www.facebook.com/TurtleRescueLongIsland?fref=ts

While I cannot attest to what was posted, as it has been removed, I will say that Marc is not one to change facts to suit his argument. Knowing him as I do, I'm going to go ahead and assume that what he said was truthful.

I agree that some of the info in that article isn't the best, but it's a lot better than any info the pet stores here hand out (if any at all) and it seems to at least be a good starting point. Sure, a 50gal tank is small for an adult, but it's not deadly. They in fact CAN be kept without UVB if enough of the needed elements are presented in food, but I wouldn't take the chance and wouldn't recommend it.

The fact that Marc found this article reasonable to share on his page is his own call. He's been doing this a long time and is at the very least entitled to his own opinion about it, if put across respectfully. Anyone is free to disagree, but if he finds the content offensive he has the right to remove such things from his own page.

I'd like to take a moment to go over some of what you just posted..

"I consider a UV light helpful but not absolutely essential for most species." Again, this is horrible advice. Turtles must have proper UVB lighting for their health; without it, their shells can become deformed and they won't shed as they need to

. - Not necessarily. I've known many keepers whose turtles have done great with diets high in calcium and limited or no uvb. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, I'll leave that to the experts, but It's not a death sentence if you know what you're doing.

However, most American water turtles and many foreign species will cohabit nicely. I have successfully mixed many kinds of sidenecks, cooters, sliders, map, mud and musk turtles, and they have thrived together without issue for years." They say NOTHING about how aggressive RES are and how they will start fighting other turtles of the same or other species constantly as they age.

- Not all RES are aggressive. I've kept several together peacefully for many years. 'Constant fighting' as they age is not the rule. I currently keep res with maps and other sliders with no real issues.

I myself have taken in my fair share of rescue animals over the years, be they cats, birds, turtles, or other reptiles. More than a few have been handed over to me in horrible condition (snake half eaten by a rat, res kept in water in the dark for 20 years with various obvious problems, just to name a couple). Maybe that's why Marc and I don't see the 'horrible' things you seem to see in that article. When compared to what most uneducated keepers do to their animals, it's not half bad. If the animals we've saved had been kept half as well they'd be in much better shape.

I think everything has been said that needs to be said with this topic.

General Care Discussion :: Horrible article being praised by rescues

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