General Care Discussion :: Sudden Ammonia Spike

[Guppie0416]

Hello fellow turtle members! I am new to this forum and have been a turtle owner for about 6 to 7 years now. I have encountered a sudden ammonia spike in her tank, but before I explain further on this, let me provide you a brief background on my baby girl.

I have a female Red Ear Slider, named Guppie, weighs about 3lbs, and she lives in a 75 gallon tank with the turtle topper as her current dock. She has a UVA and UVB lamp suspended from the ceiling that hangs above her dock. I have it set to a timer and she basks every day until right after her lamps turn off. I have the Fluval FX5 cannister filter with 2 sponges in each basket, 2 Fluval carbon bags (in each basket, for a total of 3 baskets), Fluval Biomax Bio Rings, and the Fluval Pre Filter Media mixed among all 3 baskets. I have large black rocks at the bottom of her tank with decorative plants all around, some suction cupped to the sides. Lastly, a thermometer magnetized inside her tank so I can monitor her temp, which has been staying between 73 to 74 degrees, her dock between 80 and 85 degrees.

She is very active and I feed her outside of her tank in one of those large orange Home Depot buckets. She gets romaine lettuce, arugula, sometimes blueberries, Reptomin, and sometimes dried river shrimp.
I have been doing partial water changes, about 25%n to 30% once a week, and filter rinses once a month. I rinse her Pre Filter Media and Biomax Rings in the water from her filter (after I drain part of it to help move it to the bathroom) and I rinse her carbon bags, sponges, and her entire filter components (hoses, filter canister, lid, tubes, etc.) in the shower really well until everything runs clear.

I hate to truthfully admit, I was not doing any of the above for a period of time until about 2 months ago I stepped up to the plate full time as I could not stand the idea of ever losing her. I wanted her to be healthy and happy as I love her so much. I did clean her filter and did some water changes periodically, but I never tested it on a regular basis, fed her outside of her tank, or weekly water changes/monthly filter rinses.

It was at this time, I decided to give her all brand new filter media, start with a clean slate, so I could better manage cleaning her filter straight from the drawing board. I couldn’t remember the last time she had new media, but I didn’t realize at the time, it would mess with her levels. This is still a bit of a learning experience for me right now. Nonetheless, she got all new media – pre filer, carbon, and the bio rings. She got some new sponges, but I still have some of the ones I had originally, I just clean them really well to remove all the gunk build up.

After I changed her media out completely, I tested her water every day and her levels read: PH 6.0 Ammonia 0 to 0.25 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 40 to 80. It was going strong like this for a while to a point where I switched to testing her water once a week when I did her partial water changes. Now, in the past 2 weeks, she has had a dramatic ammonia spike and it keeps gradually growing, it went from 1.0 to just 4.0 from this past Saturday! It was on this day I performed her monthly filter media rinse. As soon as I get home from work today, I am going to test her water again. I am going to continue doing it daily and reading up on this to see if there are any changes. Her other levels read the same still: PH 6.0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 40, this has been a constant.

I have been doing a lot of reading on these forums to figure out appropriate water levels, and what I may have done to cause such a huge spike. It seems there are some varying opinions on what it could be, but I am not sure. I am not certain if it could take 2 months for my filter to cycle. I am still not really clear on what this means, but from what I have read on here, I've gathered it is related to the beneficial build of the good kinds of bacteria? Can it really take 2 months? I read doing partial water changes during this time is bad, and I have been doing them. 2 weeks ago I did a 50% as that’s when it read 1.0 and I got really scared, then the following week when it read 2.0 I freaked out and almost did a complete water change until I read on this forum it was possible her filter was cycling. So I stopped at 60%. I have been trying to stay calm, and let the filter do its job (if in deed this is what is happening) but I have been asking myself so many questions, I figured to finally hop on here and see if there was any advice anybody could offer on what I may be doing wrong, what might be causing the problem, or anything I could be doing better to take care of her.

I am also concerned about her levels, with the exception of her ammonia, are these acceptable? When I took her to the vet earlier this year for her annual check up (she got a clean bill of health), surprisingly enough the vet told me that Nitrates are not that important, that it’s her PH and Ammonia you need to be concerned about. After reading on here, it seems that was a load of crap!

Ultimately, I want what’s best for my Guppie. Her water is clear as a bell, she is active and swimming around, her skin and eyes look good. She loves to eat, and is basking regularly all day. In fact she is the happiest I have ever seen her, but I know clear water doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t anything wrong.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and I apologize for any repeats and for my newbie-ness, this is my first turtle. I just wanted to try and be as clear as I could. I would be happy to answer any questions.

[ljapa]

Yes, by removing all the old media, you have restarted your aquarium cycle.

The nitrate cycle in an aquarium is facilitated by two groups of bacteria. One converts ammonia to nitrite. Another converts nitrite to nitrate. Water changes removes the nitrate in a fully cycled aquarium.

Water changes during the cycle will lengthen it, but I'd still be willing to change and deal with a longer cycle if the levels get really high.

Unlike fish who are breathing the water, your turtle is just drinking it, so it's not good but not as dangerous as for fish. Plus, since you are feeding outside the aquarium, your turtle is getting the opportunity to drink water that isn't so high in ammonia or nitrite.

A fresh cycle can take up to two months or longer, but your substrate and any decorations will have some bacteria on them.

Watch your levels.

And new filter media is mostly a way for the filter manufacturers to make money. Replace sponges when they start to fall apart. Switch carbon out monthly. You pretty much never need to replace the ceramic media.

I'd also skip rinsing the hoses/filter/sponges in tap water. That will kill off the bacteria growing in them.

Just squeeze the sponges in the same water you rinse the biomedia in. Don't worry about the hoses unless they are really bad.

Do change the carbon once a month. It adsorbs impurities in the water and will stop working once it is full. You can't rinse it.

[Guppie0416]

Thank you so much ljapa for your response, this is most helpful! It seems there is a lot of information about turtles out there and not a set right or wrong way to manage the tank and the filter, so I truly appreciate this. I apologize for my ocean of information, but I wanted to double check, are the other level readings I am getting okay? I know I am good on her Nitrite at the moment, but I cant seem to find a straight answer about PH and Nitrates. I tested again tonight, and did a 25% partial. PH is 6.0 and Nitrate between 20 and 40. Ammonia remained the same, 4.0.

Ive gotten her new carbon bags and will be changing these out ASAP. I will let you know how this goes.

Thanks again!

[ljapa]

When I was asking the same worried questions, I was told that ph is less of an issue foe RES than for fish. My ph tends to 7.8-8.2.

The good news for you is that ammonia comes in two forms in in aquarium water. The more dangerous form is NH3. The less dangerous form is NH4. In fact, the ammonia detoxifiers like Prime simply convert NH3 to NH4.

An aquarium test kit measures both. But the ratio between the two, barring some additive like Prime, is dependent on ph. The lower the ph, the less of the the dangerous NH3. The higher the ph, the more NH3 there is represented in that test kit measurement.

That's a long winded way of saying a 4.0 reading for you, with your 6.0 ph, is much less a concern than a 4.0 reading for me with a ph around 8.

Your nitrate reading may be leftover from before your filter cleaning, but I'm betting it means you already have both kinds of bacteria. You just don't yet have enough to convert all the ammonia your turtle is excreting.

Keep an eye on it, but understand that your low ph makes it less of a concern.

The guide I've heard on nitrate is to keep it under 40. I aim for less to be on the conservative side. While there are bacteria that can convert nitrate into nitrogen, which eventually leaves the tank as gas, it's pretty much impossible to grow them in large enough numbers to deal with the nitrate. So, turtle excretes ammonia, bacteria convert that to nitrite and then nitrate. We remove the nitrate via water changes.

Of the three forms of nitrogen, ammonia is the most dangerous to a turtles health, then nitrite, then nitrate--but remember, your low ph renders the ammonia danger much lower.

[Guppie0416]

Ljapa I cant tell you how relieved I am to read this. I popped off for awhile to take your advise into consideration and still to this day I am getting an 8.0 ammonia reading. She just had her filter rinse last weekend and I was able to get her brand new carbon bags (3) and (3) ammonia remover bags. I rinsed all these in her bucket of water I drain out of the filter and I also rinse all her bio media. Then I pull water from her tank to fill the filter again. Between all 3 baskets, I have the bio media mixed and 1 of each bag (carbon and ammonia remover) split between all the baskets. I am doing her weekly partial water change right now and I have become frustrated as I cant seem to figure out for the life of me what it is I could be doing wrong still. Did giving her brand new bio media really mess this all up? I have been keeping an eye on it every day, monitoring Guppie's behavior, and she seems to be doing great still. She basking and eating regularly, so I am really hoping with this low PH it it working in my favor.

Any other thoughts on what I could be doing wrong? OR missing for that matter?

[Guppie0416]

I would like also like to let you know her current levels right now:

PH 6.0 AM 8.0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 10 to 20

It has been like this for the past month now and has been over 2 weeks since I last did her filter rinse. It was the weekend before Halloween actually. At first I thought it might take about a week or 2 for the carbon to take effect, but alas no change as of today. I really appreciate your advise and any other information you could offer would be awesome.

Either way, thanks so much

[ljapa]

Ammonia shouldn't still be that high after this long.

Describe your filter rinse. Are you rinsing in aquarium water or tap water?

[Guppie0416]

I use her aquarium water from emptying the Fluval FX5 filter into one of the Home Depot orange buckets, including when I got new carbon and ammonia remover bags the weekend before Halloween. I was thinking it would at least take a week or less to start seeing results, but its been well over a week obviously, and I am still getting 8.0. I make sure when I do her filter rinses, none of this touches tap water.

When I do partial water changes, I even shut off her filter when I am putting new water in. Before I add new water, I put in a couple cap fulls of Kordon Ammonia Detoxifier to condition the water. When I reach the max water line, I let the water sit for about 5 minutes to let the new water adjust and for the conditioner to do its job before I turn the filter back on. I am nervous as I am putting in new water, I dont want it going through the filter to possibly kill off the good bacteria.

I even tested the tap water coming out of the faucet and I get a 0 result. So I have done something to completely kill of her good bacteria and I am racking my brain on what it could be or something that is so obvious I cant see it.

I am contemplating getting a new test kit, the current one I have is the API Freshwater kit, which I have had ever since I got Guppie, so its been a few years, I am not sure if these kits have expiration dates on them, but why would I get good results on the other items? Which kind of kit do you use?

Looking forward to hearing from you and thanks so much!

[ljapa]

Sorry, I just now saw this.

If nitrites are staying at zero and nitrates are climbing, I'd lean toward the test kit possibly being the problem. Except, that reading of zero from the tap says that it's sort of working.

Any chance there were fish and one has died, wedged behind or under something?

I'd still be tempted to get just a new ammonia kit and see what it shows. I'd also do some larger water changes until you have a handle on this.

Please keep us updated.

[devilduck]

Never had issues with the API ammonia test but the nitrate test is kinda of tricky, you really need to shake the heck out of the bottle 2 before adding the drops to the test tube.
Remember that the test will still read positive ammonia even though the detoxifier has rendered the ammonia harmless.

You just might have to wait this all out and just do small water changes. The FX5 is a huge filter and it just may take some time to fully cycle. As long as there is an ammonia source and water moving through the filter media the cycle will happen.

Once your ammonia starts dropping I would ween off of the ammonia removing bags (is this zeolite?) and replace them with more ceramic media. From the sounds of it you maybe over cleaning your filter. The FX5 on a 75g and your not feeding in tank you should only need to do a cleaning a couple of times a year.

[Guppie0416]

Hey guys,

Update: I bought a new ammonia test kit by API last week and I am still getting 8.0 ammonia reading. So it's not my test kit :/ I have had no fish in the tank. She does have rocks at the bottom I bought from a warehouse like garden store. Could this be causing the problem after a period of time? I have had them in there for a long time and not to my knowledge they never seemed to have cause a problem.

Her filter rinse is coming up this week and I am planning on buying new carbon and ammonia remover bags. By the above answers not sure if I should bother with the ammonia remover bags and just focus the carbon all in one basket with some of the media underneath it, and the balance spread throughout the filter? My husband brought up a valid point that since I have the bags spread out in each of the baskets, its not as strong of an impact then focusing them all in one. My original thought was put the ammonia remover on top, bio media in the middle basket, then the carbon on the bottom. My thinking would be when the water hits the filter it would hit the ammonia remover first, go through to the bio media and then hit the carbon on the way out. Does this even matter how the baskets are set up in the FX5?

Devilduck, the problem is, I have been having high ammonia since I originally posted this message back in September since I gave her all brand new bio media. I don't know how long it would take for the filter to cycle, but shouldn't it be cycled by now?

I just did her partial last night and only did a small amount again and I am really contemplating doing a full water change at this point if the new carbon bags don't fix it this round. I am getting nervous that Guppie has been in high amounts of ammonia for this long. Her eyes look a little puffy under water, but she looks fine when she is basking. I have been keeping a close eye on her every day.

Really appreciate the continuous input/help while I work through this. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Water test results as of 12/1/2014:

PH 6.0 Ammonia 8.0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 40ppm to 80ppm

[ljapa]

Do a water change.

The bacteria that process ammonia and nitrite stick to surfaces. You aren't pulling them out of the water, just some of their food, but you are never going to need the bacterial load to deal with ammonia and nitrite levels that high.
Since you don't have nitrates yet, you likely don't have a full cycle, which is really weird given the time, but would argue against the rock being a source. Unless, there's some substance that releases ammonia and absorbs nitrate.

So, I'd do a water change, and get some Prime. We recommend against it generally as not needed, but any minor long term harm from using it is offset by the definite short term harm of the ammonia and nitrite.

[Guppie0416]

Ljapa thank you for the info!

Do you recommend performing the complete water change first and see how this works? Or should I perform her filter rinse as well with new carbon bags?

Is this the water conditioner you are referring to?
http://www.oscarfish.com/water-conditio ... prime.html

My second question. Is this only a conditioner that I should use for the complete water change? Then stay with the current one I use which is the Kordon Ammonia Detoxifier:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=4045

[ljapa]

I'd do a large water change, but leave some ammonia and nitrate there for the final bacteria to develop.

Maybe a 60 or 70% change.

Make sure you are treating the water with that large of a change, so you don't kill off bacteria.

After a few days, drain some aquarium water into a five gallon bucket. Use that wat e to rinse the filter media. Don't scrub the filter. Leave the film that's on the inside surface because that's your beneficial bacteria.

[Guppie0416]

Thank you again! I will send you an update and hopefully with better test results

Stay tuned