General Care Discussion :: Shell problems...

Taking care of your turtle's overall health.

Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:30 am   Shell problems...

I apologize in advance for the lengthy post....Jasmine's shell problem started before she arrived in the United States. An Italian vet said he didn't think it was fungus, but had my niece treat her with a blue solution (nolvasan ? - I was already back in the States, so I'm not sure what it was.) for a week, and gave her daily injections an antibiotic for 7 days. There may have been a slight improvement, but not much if any. This vet didn't have any other ideas, and he was the only reptile vet in the area. When she arrived in the States I took her to the closest reptile vet 1 1/2 hr. away. He didn't know what the problem was, but didn't feel it was a fungus. He said it could be a congenital shedding disorder, or a metabolic disorder. It took a few months after they arrived here before they started basking on a regular basis. The vet thought once she did that the shell would start to improve. When it didn't, I took her back. This time he did three scrapings and sent them to the university for cultures. They found some bacteria. He didn't feel that was the problem, but rx'd 7 days of baytril injections just in case it was an issue. The fungal cultures came back negative after 30 days. The baytril injections did nothing that I could visibly notice. She has since really slowed down on eating, so it was suggested she get b12 injections once weekly for 4 weeks. She has had two, and I haven't seen a big jump in her appetite. She has recently started going crazy to get out of the tank. I had her xray'd, and she doesn't have eggs. My local vet has agreed to give the injections, but doesn't treat reptiles, so I took her back to the original doctor on Monday. They are at a loss. They aren't real concerned about the decrease in appetite this time of year. With no visible eggs, they don't know why she all the sudden is frantically trying to get out of the tank. They still don't think the shell problem looks like fungus, and the cultures were negative, but wanted me to start blotting her with 1:20 nolvasan daily....I leave it on 15 minutes...rinse...and put her back in the tank. Theodore's shell looks great. They have been in the same tanks...under same lights...eaten the same food since they were the size of a half dollar or smaller. He recently shed. Jasmine basks more than him and always has, but she still has baby scutes. I read spotsMama's post, History of curing a Turtles shell, and the pictures look similar. I have all brands of food. Until a few months ago they ate reptomin with veggies/fruit. When their appetite slowed down I started trying other foods...mazuri...flukers...zoo med...hikari wheat germ. The water parameters are good, other than high Ph and alkaline. I have a 6' x 2' x 2' tank with two fx5 filters, that I clean monthly, and have set up according to VeipaCray's media layout. I have an above tank basking area. It is about 2' x 2' x 14". I have two 100 watt bulbs for heat...one on each side. I have two UVB lights. Jasmine basks on a regular basis, several hours some days. I would appreciate any advice on her shell. I have attached two pictures, one of Jasmines shell, and one of Theodore's for comparison. The pics make it look like Jasmine and Theo are the same size, but she is at least twice his size. Thanks in advance.
Jasmine.JPG
Jasmine
Theodore.JPG
Theodore
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 am   Re: Shell problems...

Close up of shell...
Optimized-DSC_0034.JPG
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:18 am   Re: Shell problems...

Very thorough explanation.

I have no real input but I want to follow this thread to see how it turns out.
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:17 pm   Re: Shell problems...

No, this is fungus. Injections and antibiotic are not recommended for it's treatment. Get some Silver Sulfadiazine (SSD) cream for it. There are some retained scutes, so can complicate things. Also, there are various strains of this stuff... some of are which resistant to SSD, but it's the best medical option. Plenty of basking is probably the best treatment, especially under the sun. When it's warmer, can you take her outside?
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:41 am   Re: Shell problems...

Thanks Steve...I called the local vet today. She had some Silver Sulfadiazine, but it included another medication, so she was going to see what she could find, or call into a pharmacy for me. I am treating her with the nolvasan daily......blotting her with the 1:20 solution and leaving it on for 15 - 20 minutes...rinsing, then putting her back in the tank...today is the third day. I will start with the Silver Sulfadiazine as soon as I can. I will take her outside when it gets warmer. How long/how often?
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:03 am   Re: Shell problems...

What kind is she going to get? It's usually a 1% solution. How long have you been using the nolvasan?

Take her out as much as you can. I take my turtles out a lot during the summer, but it doesn't seem to do a great job on the fungus... those who have their RES in outdoor habitats do better.
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:08 pm   Re: Shell problems...

I have been using 1:20 Nolvasan solution...once daily...blotted on shell for 20 minutes. Tonight will be the 7th treatment. I have attached some pictures from today. One of a close up of the front of her shell behind her head. One to show her basking area and lights. The lights are 11" from the top of her shell. The two UVB are Reptisun 10. I went with the 10 because the light would be over 12" from Theodore's shell. There is room to add a third UVB. Do you think it's necessary? There are times she will sit under the area in the front without a light. I want to make sure she is getting good UVB. And the last picture will compare to one previously posted of the back end of her shell. I don't remember if she was wet or dry in the previous pictures. Today she was dry...I took her right off the basking area. Do you still think it looks like fungus? I have an appointment tomorrow for them to recheck her shell again. And she also has a couple of sores now...one above her eye, which I thought may have been done when Theodore was fluttering her, but now she has another one on her head. She has also had blood on her nose after traveling. I'm pretty sure it's from rubbing against the snake bag nonstop. I have her in a snake bag in a reptile box lined with styrofoam to prevent quick temperature changes. She fights and digs the entire trip. I don't know what I can to make the trip easier on her.

I did get the 1% SSD. I was going to wait until after the appointment tomorrow to start treatment, so he could see how she responded to the Nolvasan. He mentioned giving her something for intestinal parasites and also ivermectin. I have done some research, and I do not feel comfortable having her treated with Ivermectin. Also, I don't feel her lack of appetite is from parasites. She is still trying to get out of the tank. I'm not so sure she doesn't have eggs. I just caught her on the basking area 'pushing' with her back legs. I have looked at Penelope's pictures, and in her xray the eggs are hard to see. I'm having this vet look at the xrays again....this will be the third set of eyes.

I called the owner of the well that supplies our water to see if there were any additives, and there are none...no chlorine or chloramine. The PH is still 8.4 on the freshwater high range ph color card. It is high coming out of the tap, but not that high. Everything else tests fine. I've read not to use the ph lowering additives, so I haven't tried to lower it.

I can't wait until spring to take her outside. I live in Missouri now and it's just too cold.



I really appreciate this help...Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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front shell 2-27-13 (2).JPG
2-27-13.JPG
front shell 2-27-13 (1).JPG
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:10 am   Re: Shell problems...

My RES is retaining scutes similar to that. Making his shell look jagged and slightly bumpy. I've tried everything but actual outside basking in the sun. Being in FL I am gonna try and get this done this weekend with a kid pool since the weather has been really crappy past few days and it just got cooler again today. Steve, is actual outside basking the only real way to stimulate shedding? I haven't seen mine shed yet and they're going on 2 years old now.
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:16 am   Re: Shell problems...

@ Oliver's mom - Has there been any improvement with the Nolvasan? From what I've seen, the Nolvasan and UVB won't really help fight the fungus, so I'd just keep one over the basking area. If anything, I would use a MVB if you're going to change his lighting set up. Has there been some actual evidence of parasites? I wouldn't treat it based on suspicion, especially since there are different types that require different types of medication. When were the X-rays taken? It should be pretty clear if there are eggs are not, even if they are small. You can have your water tested at many aquarium stores, but you'd want to have some activated carbon for your filter anyway. Next time you have her out, feel around the shell for signs of shedding. Gently push down on the scutes to see if any water seeps out.

Take a deep breath. There's a lot going on and you probably feel miserable trying to figure this out. I'm also iffy on the vets... they're throwing some random ideas. Treatment will be a bit stressful for you and Jasmine but take it easy! I would try to get her appetite back to normal, then make sure about the eggs, then attack the fungus.

@ valladin82 - I don't what's the best for stimulating shedding. It seems those in outdoor ponds have fewer instances of this type of fungal infection but regular basking should help greatly. Can you post a pic of the shells?
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:48 am   Re: Shell problems...

Linking directly from my Facebook. lol https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 7832_o.jpg

His shell has looked bumpy/jagged like that since he was very little. I've tried blueberries and other suggestions from keepers on here and nothing seems to make him wanna shed the scutes yet. Last thing I can do I guess is get the kiddy pool this weekend and start taking them outside on my days off. The only good thing I can say though about it is it doesn't seem to have gotten any worse its just kinda stayed like that.
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:31 am   Re: Shell problems...

It's not bad. The first shed can be the hardest, especially with those marginal scutes.
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:22 pm   Re: Shell problems...

@ Steve - You could tell I was panicking?...lol. Poor girl, she rubbed her nose raw on the trip back. She had it bleeding with a piece of skin hanging off. I am going to have to figure out another method of travel for her...Maybe a cardboard box inside a styrofoam lined box, and no snake bag, but she will have the box shredded and be covered in cardboard within minutes...lol.

I don't really see any improvement in her shell, but it doesn't look any worse. It feels really dry...almost brittle. I hope there is a beautiful healthy shell underneath, and she sheds soon. I will finish out the 20 days of Nolvasan treatments. I don't guess it can hurt. There are no signs of parasites,so I didnt' have her treated for them. This vet couldn't see any eggs either....not sure what is causing her sudden crazy behavior, and need to escape the tank. However, she is eating more. She won't touch pellets, veggies, or fruit, but looks for tuna, salmon, or chicken. She takes it out of my hand as fast as I can feed it to her. I know it's not the balanced diet she needs, but at this point I am happy she is showing interest in anything. I am also feeding her daily right now, since she wasn't eating much of anything for quite a while. Maybe I should go back to every other day now.

Thanks for the input! I really, really, really appreciate the help. *crossing fingers she sheds soon*
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:40 pm   Re: Shell problems...

She could acting up if stressed. Whenever I had my out in the car, I had to hold her a few times to calm her down.
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