Urgent Care :: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:47 pm   Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

Hey guys, my son's Nanna found a hatchling Red Eared in their back yard a little over a week ago and now we are trying to raise it.

We have it in a large sweater container with about five gallons of 77 to 82 degree water. I removed the chlorine and started with a cheap Penn Plax in tank mini canister filter. After a couple of days, I added a basking platform from Walmart with the 100 watt Zoo Med combination uv/heat lamp in a Zoo Med mini dome positioned about 12 inches over the platform. His stress level seemed to go down about three days ago and he pigged out. I fed him three live doodle bugs or antlions which he didn't swallow, but chomped up getting the goody out of them, then he did swallow about four mouthfuls of the dried shrimp for turtles you buy off the shelf. He preferred the shrimp over the pellets or dried krill. I didn't think I could over feed him, but now I'm afraid I have.

The next day, in the afternoon, he was very lethargic, and would just lay there with his eye membranes shut. If I pushed him in the water, he would only do just enough to find a resting spot. I was afraid I had the lamp too close, so I moved it up to about 14 inches above his platform. I placed the thermometer on the platform and it raised to about 92 degrees.

In the morning, he was much perkier, looking for a way out of the tank and stuff, and was a little jumpier which seems more like normal behavior. By the afternoon, he was catatonic, like the night before, but perhaps a little worse. I did about a 75% water change being careful to maintain exact water temp and removed the chlorine. By the next morning, he was active again, although not very jumpy. Perhaps by now he is used to us, or perhaps he is just declining.

To speed this post up, this has been going on for about three or four days, since he ate. The only three factors I can attribute this to are perhaps:

1. he ate too much or got sick from the antlions or something in the turtle food
2. Water quality
3. The heat/uv lamp

I have tried to keep the bio load to a bare minimum, only leaving a couple of pieces of food in case he wants to eat, and I have removed every little thing I can before I introduce fresh food, using a turkey baster. I have performed two 75% water changes, along with a complete change when I revamped the tank first thing last week. Now I admit I haven't ran the filter constantly, but I have run it at least 12 hours a day. Water temp has stayed between 77 and 82 with absolutely no sudden changes. I run the lamp about eight to ten hours a day, which I suspect is the root of the problem. He seems to fall asleep under the lamp which can't be good for him. Tonight I got the feeling he was dehydrating himself under the lamp. His demeanor seems to steady decline throughout the day, until the evening times when my wife insists he must be dying. I admit sometimes, I wonder myself. Today he drug himself up onto the basking platform, and stretched his head out and just laid it on the platform. He definitely looked dead at that moment, and I certainly didn't think that was good. Don't get me wrong, he is till able to swim in the evenings, but only does what is necessary, and quickly finds a resting spot.

Tonight, I switched the sorry Penn Plax filter for a Marineland 100 power filter good for 20 gallon tanks. It has much better physical filtration with some charcoal, and a bio wheel. I also conditioned the water with the ready made bio conditioner that is supposed to start the tank right off with good bacteria.

Other things to consider are this. The first two days, we had a gravel substrate which had some pieces perhaps small enough for him to swallow, although I doubt he did given his ultra finicky nature swallowing the small pieces of shrimp. Also, I built a nice habitat for him with some polished black stones, large river rocks, and some flagstone that is called fieldstone that I got from my local stone supply house. I don't want to rule out that the stones may have some kind of contaminant, but I doubt it. His tank is really nice with a basking platform, a couple of shallow spots and another dry perch that is in the shade from the uv lamp. Also, he has several shady tunnel like spots under water.

I know I will get advice to take him to a vet, but I need some justification. I have a good inclination that the vet will not be able to help or know what to do for a hatchling that hasn't established itself. Also, I'm sure letting it go may seem advisable, however I feel that now it's best chance of survival is in the controlled situation it is in now.

I'm just seeking some reassurance that this may not be completely abnormal, or perhaps some advice on giving this thing the best chance. Is it possible that he is getting too much light? Is there any advice on a certain food that the little suckers just can't resist. I have the feeling that if he is really hungry, he will eat, but right now, I'm worried that if he goes too long, he will decline past the point of no return. He had already gone about four days without eating before he ate the first time, and now it looks like this could go on for a few more days if he makes it that long.
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:52 pm   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

I wouldn't go overboard with filtration when there's only a few gallons. Are you using a water heater? If so, set it to 82F. I really can't say that this is normal behavior. At this time I think either the excessive shrimp or possible impaction might be the problem. Has he been defecating?
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:42 pm   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

I wanted a full spectrum entry level filter, but the cheap Penn Plax had a sponge that didn't fill the canister and had a bypass through the center of the sponge. Basically it looked like more water would flow passed the sponge than through... just a lack of quality control I think. I returned it when I noticed the water was slightly hazy and that some bubbles seem to stay on the surface, kind of like stagnation. It was only a few dollars more for the one I have now. I have a piece of flagstone to break up or block the excessive water flow.

I haven't bothered with a water heater as this project is already pushing a Ben Franklin. Our house stays between 78 and 82 and the basking light adds warmth to the small tank. I do monitor the water temp which dips to around 77 by morning time which incidentally is when the turtle seems the happiest. Then we turn on the basking light which he does use, and the water slowly makes its way up to 80 to 82 by evening depending on whether we are home and have the ac set at 78 or if we are away, we have it set at 80. The light warms the water about two degrees warmer than what we have the ac set at and he spends quite a bit of time under it.

Now we do have to turn the light off for a couple of hours in the afternoon for my little sons nap, but I really think the turtle is already acting sluggish by the time we do this.

As far as pooping, I really don't know if he does or doesn't. I don't know what size or color it should be, and can't know for certain whether it has been sucked up by the filter or broken up. I did notice something that seemed like a small bit of clear skin or kind of like thin toilet paper for lack of a better description. It may have been regurgitated or defecated shrimp shell, or perhaps something from the turtle itself.

My turtle's shell is about the size of a half or whole silver dollar if that helps. It hasn't been very long since it hatched.

Also, after reading some posts, it has dawned on me that my turtle is floating some, and he didn't when we first got him. Sometimes now when he sits in shallow water, his tail end won't stay on the stone, and it seems very awkward for him. Sometimes I notice him rocking forward and back when he is in this position. I can't figure out if he is gasping, although I do notice sometimes(when he is fresh and alert) that when he is on dry land and has his neck extended that he takes deep throat breaths, but I wouldn't know if that is normal or abnormal. Most of the time however he is mostly withdrawn and sucked into his shell.

If he does have an impaction, is there anything I or a vet can do? I was kind of thinking the floating was due to gas, but am aware it may be a RI. He doesn't seem to float unbalanced though. What kind of money am I looking at to get a RI treatment?

One other question, I have noticed a suggestion of soaking in a pedialite solution which I do know is for dehydration, but I'm thinking it can have some nutritional value. Are you talking about regular unflavored pedialite for children, and how much do you dilute?
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:45 am   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

Hmmm. If your seeing the turtle breathing with its mouth even a few times I would think RI after reading the experiences on this forum. When my turtle had an RI it was mostly lethargic with some occasional activity here and there. I'm kinda doubting it's something to do with impaction or gas but I'm no vet. I think if you wanna see him get better you need a vet. I was able to find one that saw a turtle for $40 + medicine, which was like $20. Also, with an RI you can have fluid in the lungs which causes the floating, or usually lopsided swimming (listing).
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:22 am   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

Well, I haven't seen him open his mouth at all other than the very few times he has snapped at food, and that has been a few days. He does list though, and a few times I have seen him laying at the water edge with just his head or half of his head stuck in the water. I did go ahead and get an in tank heater to get the water to a steady 82 and I bought a night basking light, although I'm going to return it for the lightless kind.

He does from time to time spit out a bubble, but that is usually associated with swimming activity. Last night, he was somewhat active, but unfortunately he had a stressful event finding himself behind the make shift sheild I had for the powerfilter waterfall. It doesn't look like he drowned any, but he was hanging on, half stuck between the rock and the side of the tank with his head above water. I'm sure it was some unneeded stress at a time when he needs to be calm. I had it blocked pretty well, but had moved it some for a little more circulation when I first put the heater in, and forgot to move it back. Luckily he didn't get stuck under the waterfall, and he had only been stuck there less than an hour. I was so mad at myself when I saw it.
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:11 pm   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

Kinda sounds like he was sleeping. Turtles will hang or latch on to something with their head above water and stay that way for hrs while they sleep.
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:19 pm   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

HaHa, actually, he was sitting at the waters edge with his body out of the water and just his head in. Kind looked like he was trying to end it.

Anyway, My wife said he was all over the tank this morning and tried to snap at some food, but this evening, again, absolutely catatonic. Just some minimal swimming and lots of floating. He did eventually swim to find his basking dock.

Can somebody tell me if they think this hatchling has a chance even if I take it to the vet. I'm just wondering if such a young turtle that hasn't established himself has a chance of recovering if it does in fact have a RI.

Also, I'm still wondering about the pedialite solution. How much do you dilute, and is it strictly for dehydration?
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:55 am   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

Pedialite would be diluted 1:1 with water but doesn't offer any nutritional value. I have no idea what his chances with or without a vet but it's pretty unusual behavior you're describing.

Have you used a thermometer to measure the water temperature? You said he snapped at some food, but he hasn't eaten any yet?
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:19 am   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

I haven't seen him eat other than the one day that he pigged out. Well actually I can't be certain he isn't foraging for food at the bottom of the tank when we aren't around, but I doubt it. It seems he has to make an effort to get down there, he can't just hang out under water. I try to keep track of how many pieces of food are floating and usually, there are about the same. However my wife tries to feed him sometimes while I'm at work, and I did find quite a bit of food hidden under rocks last night while I was moving his tank around.

I monitor the temperature pretty closely and have double checked the thermometer with another thermometer. Since I got the heater, it has been between 82 and 84, but I have the heater fine tuned to keep it at 82 now.

The more I read, the more I'm wondering if he does have a RI, but I'm curious how it could have had such an immediate effect on him. I mean it was like one day he was super active turtle and then the next day he was really lethargic turtle. What can I look for in such a small turtle to give me a hint he is having trouble breathing. I don't see any discharge and can't tell if he is weesing, but he definitely has a floating problem, and it seems that he does list a little. Also, he doesn't breath from his mouth other than sometimes he spits out a bubble, but I think that is normal.
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:48 am   Re: Newbie help for Hatchling Red Eared

I would try some alternative foods to see if he's interested -- live prey can be very enticing to RES. Turtles don't always display symptoms of RI, but there could be other issues affecting him.
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