Urgent Care :: Baby RES: Symptoms Of Metabolic Bone Disease

[BROOKLYN]

First time poster but been a member for a few months and have been constantly reading this forum. I listed the details below so members have a general idea of the setup and the story instead of going directly to the problem I seem to be facing.

I recently decided to obtain 3 more RES after having an open setup laying around when I upgraded to a 55 Gallon tank for my 12+ years old Survivor (male RES). The first few days was nothing to be surprised about. All three were shy and needed to adjust to their new home but they took nips at the Reptomin I offered. The next few days I notice one of the baby RES was very active and looks healthy (named Monster). He is the largest of them all leading at an appox: 1 1/2inches while the others stood a little less than that. The 2nd RES named Rocky still seemed shy and was always basking. He sleeps in the basking ramp as well and I was concerned but after two days or so he was eating and seem a little more active. However, the last RES named Cotton was different. He was semi-active when I got him but his eyes always threw me off a bit. It seemed at first as his eyes was always close and swollen. So I offered a bit of carrots for the Vit A immediately into all three of their diets with Reptomin as their primary diet. After closer examination, I realize that his eyes were not close but it seems to be covered with a transparent layer of skin. If looked closely upon, especially when Cottin is basking, it becomes much clearer. At first, I thought his eyes was dry but during the few days when he dived directly into the water when I approach, that transparent layer of skin around his eyes still showed. But, before anyone jumps into any conclusions, his eyes are not always like this. At times, when he lifts his eyelids up, you can see directly into his eyes without that layer of transparent skin. This is my first concern. The second concern relates directly to the topic and I apologize for such reading. Yesterday, after about a week of having them, I thought it was best to start handling them a bit, I notice that Cotton had a real soft shell unlike Monster and Rocky. His carapace was soft and same goes with his plastron. The marginal scute also seems to bend when I use that position to lift him up. I did some research and it seems to be a sign of MBD. So starting from yesterday, everytime I feed him, I take him out and put a Reptomin in a rubbermaid and placed broke small pieces and powder like cuttlebone into it. He doesn't seem to eat any of it. I have tried adding tuna and he begins to chow that down but his interest in the Reptomin and cuttlebone is non-existent. I am planning today to break off the cuttlebone into a powder and do the same with the Reptomin. Then I will mix that in with the tuna fish. He isn't real active and spends most of the time in the basking ramp during the basking hours and sleeping hours. I thought he might have had some kind of fracture but when I put him into the rubbermaid during feeding time (only him), he swims around a bit with all his limbs. Is there anything else I can do for him besides taking him to a herp vet for vitamin shots? I don't want it to sound like he's paralyze or something. In summary, he seems to have signs of MDB. From my guess, it seems to be an early stage of MDB. He moves around a bit but spends most of the time in the basking platform. He doesn't seem to eat his Reptomin but does chow down on tuna fish whenever I offer it infront of him. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

The Setup
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All-Glass 29Gallon Tank with Deluxe Hood
(Will Upgrade their tank as they grow older to Survivor's tank and Survivor will most likely be upgraded to a 70+ gallon tank)
Hagen Aquaclear 50
Basking Platform
Reptisun 5.0 (UVB Source. The splash guard from the deluxe hood has been removed so the UVB isn't filter).
Hydor Shatterproof Heater
Plastic Plants

The water is kept at 78.x degrees and the basking area is at around 90-93 degrees. These temperatures were taken using the Coralife digital thermometer. The tank is bare bottom but covered with a lizard liner after I used the silicone glue made by All Glass. This liner was put there when Survivor occupied it.

[sonyj]

I really wish I could help you more, but the only thing I can add here is to get him to a herp vet if you believe something is seriously wrong with him. It sounds like he is ill and needs a visit to a vet to me. Good luck with the little guy.

[marisa]

There often is a slight movement to the marginal scutes near the tail in hatchlings (shell hardens at around a year), but from what you wrote, your turtle's condition sounds more extreme. (BTW, when you pick him up it would be better to place him in the palm of one hand so his feet are supported and use your other hand to keep him from jumping/falling off.)

For starters, he needs more calcium and less phosphorus (abundant in the diet mainly in animal protein, but if overdone will work against the absorption of calcium). I'm assuming he's basking under that Reptisun. If right now he'll only eat tuna, I'd get a non-phosphorus powdered calcium supplement (like RepCal, not Reptocal) and mix/coat some tuna with it and handfeed it to your turtle (if he chows down on tuna, he should eat it, and with handfeeding he'll get more of the powder). And I'd start softening some of the Reptomin pellets and mixing them in, forming a kind of pellet, and handfeeding him that. Gradually lessen the amount of the tuna to the smallest amount possible (zero would be good). You could also use the tuna juice to moisten the pellets with, then coat them with the powder and either handfeed or let them dry and then give them to your turtle. You might want to try Reptomin Baby, which has a bit of calcium added to it.

It's difficult to say about the eyes. They do have a really thin lid that they often close while basking. When I had a really young hatchling, I could see the pupil moving behind the lid when there was movement near him. If they're swollen and you think it's a Vit A deficiency, you could try rubbing a little plain cod liver oil on the lids with a q-tip once or twice a day for several days and see if that helps. If it's a Vit A deficiency, it should. Carrots are OK for beta carotene (which is converted into Vit. A), but will help only if he eats them.

If you increase the calcium and try to cod liver oil don't see any improvement, seeing a herp vet would be a wise thing to do. (I'd be cautious about letting your turtle automatically get a Vit A shot, however.)

[vieniebebe]

So it's OK,if the shell is soft in babies,oh thank got,you just got a baggage of worries off of my back.Now the only concern I have is that my baby Vien doesn't bask,help,i'm tight on budget,very tight.Oh,and do I still need to get her some cuttlebone???

[jenaero]

yes, she still needs cuttlebone. Just take off the hard backing first.

I only skimmed thru all these posts so it may have been mentioned but how long have you had her? She could just be getting used to her environment. I see all your temps are right so that's all I can think of right now.

[vieniebebe]

I've had her for exactly 7 weeks.is that cuttlebone expensive?

[marisa]

Vieniebebe, you can get once piece of cuttlebone for 88 cents plus tax at Walmart it comes in a box with a parakeet on it).

A baby's shell is "softer" than an adults, but it still should be firm to the touch. It should not depress as if you were pressing on the crust of a dinner roll, for example.

Based on your post about Temporary Calcium, where you said your turtle won't bask because the temp is too cold, I don't think the temps are fine. What exactly is the basking area temp? And your turtle does need a UVB light to create Vit D3 so the calcium can be absorbed.

[BROOKLYN]

I apologize for not updating Cotton's situation but it seems that Cotton passed away the day after I posted this thread . From my guess, the poor thing might have drowned over the night. It usually sleeps and hangs out in the basking ramp most of the time but I found him floating at the bottom of the tank that morning around 6AM. I checked up on him at around 4AM because I sleep late and he was still fine. I guess he decided to head into the water but didn't have the energy to get swim back up. I made an appointment to a Herp Vet too. I declared him officially dead after 6 hours of trying to revive him. But no budge. My little sister is upset like I am. As for Rocky & Monster, they are doing great but it doesn't seem to be the same three weeks ago when all 3 were just basking together. Now all I can ask myself is if I could have done more to help Cotton ?