Urgent Care :: Shell problem - URGENT, PLS HELP

[kolecuko]

Hello, I'm new here. I've read a lot of topics here, but registered today because I have a problem with my turtle. I know and I am aware that he is living in very poor conditions and I'll improve them ASAP (next month).

How big is your turtle? 2.4 in (6cm)
How long have you had it? 11 months

What is the water temperature? 24/25 C
Did you use a thermometer? yes
Are you using a water heater? no
How much water is in there? 5 liters (I change the water every third or fourth day)
Are you using a water conditioner? no
Are you using any filtration? no

What is the basking temperature?29/30 C
Is there a basking light? yes
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of?a flat rock
Is there a UVB light? no (will get one next week)

What have you been trying to feed it? commercial food, carrots, cabage
When was the last time your turtle ate? today (eating normaly)

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? small (will post a picture)
Is the tank near a window? yes
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? yes

Have you read the Basic Care section? yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms? no


My turtle developed a shell problem 3 weeks ago. In the beginning it had four small symmetrical holes on top of shell, and after that developed some black areas on the shell. The problem is getting worse.

I bought Vitamin D and Calcium drops and cuttle bone. I treated the shell with Betadine (10% solution povidone-iodine in water) and antibacterial cream. 3 days in row I keep him dry for 10-12 hours and let him swim for 2-3 hour.

living area and turtle before the problem:
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=untitled-1482.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=untitled-2410.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=untitled-3856.jpg

small symmetrical holes on top of shell:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=p1418.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=p2149.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=p3744.jpg

shell after Betadine treatment with small holes on top, 1 on the side and 1 black area:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=b1403.jpg

now, with 3 bigger black areas and some smaller ones:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=n1833.jpg

The turtle is eating, swimming and basking normally.

Please tell me what should I do and what is wrong with him, I suspect lack of Calcium and Vitamin D and E. As I said I know that he needs better living conditions (and better diet) and I am working on that, but I need to save him first.

Thank You

[marisa]

The regularity of the 4 small "holes" to me looks like he scraped or somehow injured his the (the rocks he's got for a basking area look abrasive).

If you want to "save" him, start by improving his habitat. I would stop the Betadine, since it doesn't appear to be helping and just might be making the situation worse.

[kolecuko]

Thaks for the fast reply, here are some fresh photos:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=n1620.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=n2402.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=n3134.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=n4129.jpg

the food:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09102&f=f1313.jpg

the drops:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09101&f=d1719.jpg


I'm working on a new aquarium (100 cm X 50 cm X 50 cm) and I will get all the equipment that I need, but all of this will be available in april or may this year.
What should I do now?

[TheComputerGremlin]

I apologize because I cannot view the photos here at work, so I can't comment on that. But based on your description, I would fix the basking area immediately if marisa suspects that caused the damage. Do you have access to something like plexiglass? You can build a plexiglass basking area pretty easily, I did using plexiglass and PVC pipe. You can also try to stick the plexiglass to the rock that you are currently using to smooth it out. There is also something that is like aquarium turf, it's like turf grass that you put in your yard, but it's for aquariums. There is also aquarium carpet. You may be able to attach one of those to your basking rock to make it safer.

As marisa said, the best thing you can do is fix the living conditions, but turtles are hardy and can survive many years in poor conditions, so don't let it stress you too much. Take your time and build the best setup that you can. But fix the basking area ASAP.

[kolecuko]

Thanks, I will make a better (temporary) basking dock.

In the past two days I've read a lot of topics for turtle care and health and I also consulted a vet over the phone. I'm a little bit confused.

- The vet recommended applying Zinc Oxide cream after Betadin treatment.
- Some of the sites recommended applying Zinc Oxide cream.
- Most of the sites recommended applying SSD cream.

Which one is better, which one should I use and why?

P.S. Both are available in the nearest pharmacy.

[SpotsMama]

SSD is the best. I've used it and it's excellent.

As an alternative to Betadin, try chlorhexidine. Chlorhexidine is an antiseptic that is gentler to living tissue than betadin and promotes healing. Betadine is rather harsh. A product we get around here is a handwash for people that contains chlorhexidine called Hibiclense. If you use Hibiclense (or a similar wash) be sure and rinse well after cleaning as it contains soap which will irritate tissue if not rinsed off. Lots of other products contain chlorhexidine - just be sure to follow the directions for diluting and rinsing per the package.

How does the plastron look? Usually shell problems that develop as a result of poor habitat start on the plastron rather than the carapace. If his plastron is ok than that would support the suggestion that the holes are injuries.

On the dark areas, are they soft or smelly at all? Do they have a slimy feel?

(He's really cute by the way.)

[kolecuko]

I'll buy SSD.

His plastron is OK, I think I know what is the problem and i think I caused it.
He/She is shedding and I've read that it should loose all the scuds in a week or so, and if it did not, than that is result of lack of Vitamin E. Mine is shading almost 6 weeks.

When I clean the aquarium I usually clean the turtle with a soft tooth brush. With the tooth brush 3 or 4 scuds came off very easily, but I think that is the time when I made all the damage (the regularity of the holes is supporting that), and after a week a dark area appeared under one scud. I tried to remove it with the tooth brush and it came off (again very easily) . the black area was a little bit softer but not much and it didn't smell and after basking it wasn't soft any more. I think it is blood somewhere in the top layers of the shell (like a bruise).

I concluded all of this because:
Yesterday while I was cleaning him most of the scuds (all the big ones) came off (again easily). After one hour 2 new small holes appeared and new black areas. One the areas had a reddish color That is why I think it is blood in the top layers of the shell. I cleaned the hole shell with Betadin so I would prevent infections and left it out of the water during the night at a warm dry aquarium (28 C).

Probably those are wounds and bruises that I inflicted.

I feel very sorry for the poor turtle and very angry at my self. The turtle didn't show any signs of pain, but now that I see the new black areas I think it felt paint.

Here are the photos.

the plastron:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09103&f=pl1264.jpg

new black areas:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09103&f=ok1763.jpg

I will find chlorhexidine and will buy the SSD today.

[geekyturtle]

DO NOT try to clean off or brush off turtle scutes. They will fall off naturally when they're ready to fall off. Your turtle is a new baby, and there isn't usually a need to ever brush them unless they're covered in layers of algae.

If you want to promote shedding, get a UVB bulb and set it on a timer along with your normal light bulb. Make sure it's UVB 5.0, not 10.0 as 10.0 is too much for a turtle. If it doesn't say UVB on the package, it's not a UVB bulb.

[TheComputerGremlin]

Yes, never EVER remove scutes, let them fall off naturally in the tank. You can take a very very soft toothbrush and gently brush the shell, but never hard enough to pull off the scutes. You can bump up the vitamin E intake for a bit to promote shedding, blueberries are good for this. You are very lucky that one of the scutes hasn't come off yet leaving exposed flesh, because it can happen, you can also end up seeing internal organs if the flesh under the scute comes off, which can happen. Let nature take it's course and let them fall off in the water.

[SpotsMama]

For good shell health, keep cuttlebone (for calcium) in the tank all the time and provide good quality UVB light. The vitamin D supplements you are giving may be helpful (assuming it's the right form of the vitamin) but exposure to UVB light is best. Turtles must have a certain form of the vitamin to metabolize the calcium they eat, otherwise it goes to waste and they experience increasingly serious bone and shell problems. UVB light stimulates their bodies to manufacture exactly the right form and amount of the vitamin.

Forgive me if you already know this, but you need to be careful in your choice of UVB bulbs. Your new tank with be large enough (around 70 gallons) to accomodate a mercury vapor bulb (MVB). That's what I'd recommend. A good brand is a T Rex 100 watt active heat flood light. Be sure and get a ceramic fixture that can handle the wattage. There are several other similar good quality bulbs like the T Rex if you can't get that one. Don't be fooled into getting a bulb that advertises itself as "full spectrum" or "basking bulb" or "mimics actual sunlight". These bulbs are cheaper but don't actually provide the UVB light that a turtle needs.

[marisa]

A note on the diet---the drops are Vit D3? If so, the vitamin is better metabolized through the shell with the use of light, either a good UVB light or direct sunlight (where are you located?). What brand of pellets are the ones on the right in the pic? I've read of a few people using Raffy, can't really comment on it. But those cubes in the middle look to me like some kind of fish food or, if not, some very cheap turtle food. If they're what I think they are, they're really high in protein and are nutritionally lacking. They're more like a "candy" than anything. Any they can be unclean---I've seen tiny worms wiggle out of cubes that looked like those after they've been submerged in water. Try some fresh veggies to add some needed variety to the diet.

If he's shedding scutes easily on his own, that's good. The dark areas on the carapace look to me like betadine has pooled under the top scutes.

[kolecuko]

Thanks for the replies.

From what I can see I think the turtle is better. The good thing is that the small holes aren't getting any bigger.
Here are some fresh pictures:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=shl01696.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=shl02784.jpg

I definitely wont do that again (remove scutes) and will consult u before I do anything new.

I will post a picture with the UVA/UVB bulb as soon as I acquire it.

Concerning the food, the pallets are produced by Sera Raffy (German company). I live in Macedonia and we don't have a big choice when it comes to turtle food (commercial). The cubic shaped food (the food in the middle of the photo) is fish food (some kind of dried and compressed worms) and I give them to him once in a week or once in two weeks (the turtle loves them ).

I am trying to add some vegetables to the diet, but it is refusing it, I tried living him without food 2 days (offering just vegetables) and again it refused them. Only likes carrots and sometimes cabbage.

I analyzed the pictures, and I have a question concerning the plastron. I see some reddish color on the outer edges of the plastron.
Is that normal or is it a problem?

Here is the old picture that I analyzed:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=pl1113.jpg

Here is a new, fresh picture:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=pl01695.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=pl02925.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=pl03873.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs537&d=09105&f=pl04479.jpg

Thanks again

[marisa]

I don't see a problem with the plastron. (The two with the glare on the plastron from being wet aren't really helpful.) The reddish areas and the "blurring" of the blotches on the plastron are the result of growth.

That fish food is as I mentioned before, basically crap and is addictive (like candy), so really give it sparingly, if at all. I used to live in Tokyo, and it was the food of choice for hatchlings sold at festivals, etc. Rather than cabbage, try some leafy lettuce (not iceberg, which is nutritionally lacking)---red leaf, green leaf, romaine.

Regarding the UVB bulb, make sure it says the bulb emits at least 5% UVB rays (UVB bulbs also emit UVA rays). If it only says "full spectrum" it doesn't mean that the bulb emits UVB rays.

Really do work on improving your RES's set-up. An improved habitat and a good diet will do more for his shell than the Betadine, etc., but it will take time to see real improvement.

[MichaelChin]

yea just make sure you get some UVB lights, that is essential... Your turtle should be fine after one week basking under the UVB lights.

[kolecuko]

Hi,

Fresh photos:





The good news is that the small holes aren't growing and the black areas (spots) aren't spreading too, BUT

- some of the scutes get pale when the turtle is in the water for a longer period




- the shell is not as smooth as it was (it has some grooves and prominences).




Are this things normal?

I bought better food as most of you suggested.



And

A note on the diet---the drops are Vit D3?

yes they are Vit D3 and Calcium.