Urgent Care :: What's wrong with my turtle?

[Karl]

Yesterday my bigger turtle got stuck under the pump and almost drowned. i took her out and placed on a dry surface. she could breath and hold her head up but couldn't move her legs and arms for half an hour. i called the vet who told me to put her into low warm water under a lamp so i did that and soon she started to move again. for safety i kept her in the bath for the night although she seemed pretty okay and active, constantly trying to get out of there. in the morning i put her back to the big tank and there she has been acting really strange. she is kinda dizzy there, doesn't swim around much and most of the time sleeps in the darkest corner in a hole she dug from small rocks. when she comes to breathe she moves pretty slowly and floats near the surface. then soon goes back to sleep. her appetite is good, gave her some pellets and she even took some from my hand. today i took her to the vet but the vet couldn't say or do anything much and said she looked ok. at the vet the turtle was active and struggled to get out of the vets hands and also struggled to get out of the transportation bucket but when she's in the tank she kind of like loses her energy.
anyway i'm really worried because she's usually the active one swimming around all the time. could it be just stress or could the lack of oxygen have damaged her in a way? please help.

[Karl]

How big is your turtle? about 8 inches
How long have you had it? more than 4 years

What is the water temperature? 26 degree celsius
Did you use a thermometer? yes
Are you using a water heater? yes
How much water is in there? 400 liter tank 2/3 filled
Are you using a water conditioner? if you mean the pump then yes
Are you using any filtration? yes original Juwel filter system

What is the basking temperature? 33 degree celsius
Is there a basking light? yes
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of? penoplast
Is there a UVB light? yes

What have you been trying to feed it? Tetra reptomin
When was the last time your turtle ate? today

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? 400 liters
Is the tank near a window? yes
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? not very, its my bedroom

Have you read the Basic Care section? yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms
she's unusually inactive and most of the time sleeps in the bottom. today in the morning i saw her opening her mouth for no reason, like yawning and now half an hour ago i saw her do that again. just a few moments ago i saw her bite her claw, like it was itching or something. i haven't seen her do that before.


also the little male one is disturbing her with his hyperactivity and is constantly trying to get to her back. probably has a mating rush or something. the big one doesn't really pay attention to him. is is ok or should i put them separate? please help.

[Karl]

I also forgot to mention that yesterday when the big one had already recovered from the drowning and was moving actively, i raised her to check her belly so that her back was facing the floor and then she made a squeaky noise. also i forgot to say that since yesterday the small male one has been breathing loud, like the noise you have when breathing with a runny nose. other than that he's ok and eats and is hyperactively harassing the female. they are both same old and the shells are 8 and 6 inches.
i've kept the water temperature up at about 27 degrees celsius, is that the right thing to do? i also recognized earlier that the female's belly was slightly pinkish. it might be that i hurt her when i pulled her out from beneath the pump and the bottom rocks or it might be something else. i also took a look at the small male one and his skin at the tail area was sort of pinkish. why is that?

[Caphits]

I would recommend fixing that filter situation. Make sure she cant get stuck! It sounds like the male might have a Respiratory Infection. That is something a good vet can fix.

[Karl]

Yes that terrible death trap was fixed right away. I don't want to believe he has a RI. the loud breathing stopped now, probably because he doesn't spend so much energy on swimming and harassing the female anymore as she went to sleep. still, another weird noise has occurred several times from the male - it sounds like gnashing of teeth although he doesn't have any. what could that be?
any information on this or the previous questions is more than welcome. thanks.

[SpotsMama]

I so sorry your turtles are having difficulties.

If the big one nearly drowned when she was stuck under the filter, it would make sense that she has some problems. Is she still opening her mouth some, like she's yawning? When she does this is she under water or in the air?

If her accident only happened yesterday, may she's still just recovering and needs a little more time. Keep her warm (your 27 degree celsius temp is good - bump it up another degree to 28 degrees, which is equivalent to 82 degrees fahrenheit, which is usually recommended for a sick turtle). Avoid stress (don't pick her up unless you need to, separate her from the male). Make sure her water is very clean and that she continues to eat. If she's having any difficulty swimming, be sure she can easily get on her basking platform and that there are things for her to rest on (like plastic plants) in the water if she gets tired of swimming.

Is your vet a herp vet (does he/she normally treat reptiles)? Do you know the typical symptoms of RI (lethargy, poor or no appetite, swollen eyes, breathing with the mouth open or yawning a lot, swimming lopsided or difficulty submerging, mucus around the mouth or nose)? If she doesn't perk up in the next few days or starts showing more symptoms you might contact your vet about getting her a round of antibiotics. If your vet isn't a herp vet, see if he/she can recommend someone who does know about herps.

A bit of pink flush around the male's tale may not be anything to be concerned about. When a turtle has been sitting still for awhile, the blood tends to pool, giving the skin a pinkish look. When they start moving around again, the pink usually disappears. Regarding the noises he's made, could they have been hisses? It's normal for turtles to hiss like cats when startled or frightened.

On the pink on the female's plastron, if you can get us some photos when the shell is dry that would help. It's possible she was bruised when she was stuck under the filter.

Keep us posted. At this point there's not much else for you to do but keep her warm, clean and stress free so she can heal. I hope she's back to her usual self tomorrow.

[Karl]

Thanks for you reply!
Today I haven't seen her yawning but yesterday is saw her doing that 2-3 times under water. Ok, I will put it to 28 degrees and keep it clean. She definitely has a good appetite and will eat. No swimming difficulties for either of my turtles, in fact the big one looks a lot better today and is more active.
The vet I went to yesterday was a reptile vet but I assume she didn't know much about turtles. Yes I know the symptoms of RI and yesterday the female showed lethargy and yawning but seems to be a lot better today. The male one is still breathing loud but I think it is just resting after a tiring run around, over and under the female. They are not hisses because they happen also when I'm not around. He has had this weird mating crush the last few days and is relentlessly in contact with the female. Right now, while writing this post I saw him pull out his big black thing (hemipenis?) for the first time. The female still doesn't pay much attention to him. Are you sure I should separate them? This could perhaps just increase stress. I'll try to take a few photos of the female soon.

[Karl]

uploaded some photos:
http://s563.photobucket.com/albums/ss80/karlllllllll/turtles/
(sorry for the bad quality, it's an old camera)

anyway today I've see the female yawning two times, once under water and once while basking. didn't separate them yet :p

[SpotsMama]

Odd. The link to your photos is taking me back to this page. I'll try it again later.

I'm relieved to hear your girl is doing better.

On separating the two, here's what I've seen on the forum. Frequently a male and female housed together will get along for awhile, then the male starts harrassing the female (like yours is doing) until the female gets tired of it and lashes out and attacks the male. Since the female is bigger, she can do a lot of damage in a hurry. We've seen some males badly injured almost instantly this way. In fact, sometimes the bigger turtle kills the smaller one.

Another thing that happens is that the female starts laying fertalized eggs. Then there's a big dilemma over what to do with them. There are way more little turtles than there are good homes to take them, and one person simply can't handle the dozens of little turtles that result, so they wind up getting dumped in a pond somewhere where there isn't enough food for them all and they compete with the native turtles.

So, my advice is to look at separating the pair permanently and sooner rather than later. It sounds like they have a nice big tank. You may be able to do something as simple as put a piece of egg crate up as a divider.

By the way, did you know that a female will lay eggs even when she isn't around a male - like a chicken? The difference is that without a male around the eggs aren't fertile.

On the yawning, it doesn't sound like anything to be concerned about. Yawning underwater is fine and normal, and an occasional yawn while out of the water is normal too. It's only worrisome when the turtle yawns a lot while out of the water. Then it's a sign that the turtle is having trouble breathing.

In your first post you mentioned the female dug a hole in some small rocks. I hope the rocks aren't anywhere near small enough for a turtle to swallow. Another thing we've seen on here is that turtles swallow the gravel on the bottom of their tanks and it stops them up.

[Karl]

sorry I gave the wrong link. here's the correct link
I would definitely not like to separate them because they have been together for their whole life and have gotten and still get along very well. I hope that doesn't change. About the eggs: they come anyway, regardless of whether I separate them or not. Whether something hatches from them is already up to me, right? So if I don't want anybody to come out of them then I just won't take care of them, although it would be interesting to give it a try in a future. Until now she hasn't laid any eggs, is that normal for a 4,5 year old turtle?
About the small rocks: most of them are big enough to not fit in a turtle's mouth but unfortunately some smaller ones also came along with the bag and I was unable to filter them out so yea, they're there :p I thought why would they eat rocks if they sometimes don't even eat carrot of apples. But still, safety first, I will replace the bottom.
I have another worry, the turtles have been biting pieces off the edge of the basking platform that is made out of this material http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/catalog/images/juwel/juwel-background-lime.gif they spit out the most of it but i believe they swallow also some I would replace it but I don't have any other basking spots to offer them.. perhaps i could cover the edge with something they couldn't bite. any suggestions? perhaps if i cover the edge with silicone they won't bite it anymore? is this a good idea?

[Caphits]

Please freeze their eggs if you are just throwing them away. This will make sure that some poor baby turtle doesn't hatch in a landfill.

And trust me, they do eat rocks. I bet you will find a few in there after you get rid of them.

And about the biting: Give them cuttlebone. I have heard that stops munching on docks.

[Karl]

Don't worry, we have so cold climate here that the eggs will freeze themselves. Yea, I will replace the rocks as soon as i can. Is sand okay for them as a bottom? Aren't they going to eat that too? Are you sure that cuttlebone is going to stop their munching? I sure hope so, in fact, I was going to get some anyway to improve their shell condition. I hope a little "wax-plastic" won't do them much harm.

[Karl]

Can it be an RI when you can hear the turtle's breathing when he comes to breathe when surfacing the water but on a dry land breathes normally? My smaller buddy has been doing that for about 5 days now, maybe more. On some occasions I can also hear the bigger one breathing after a long dive. It really sounds like when you have a runny nose. But on a dry land you can't hear anything. Other than that they both seem pretty normal, eating and swimming around and even biting some cuttlebone.
Also I'm a little worried cause the bigger one is still taking shorter naps in the bottom during the daytime. It's been 4 days since the accident. Is it still from stress or could it be anything else?
Also what do you think about the female's shell?
Thank you.

[steve]

One of my turtles is a heavy breather, especially after some hard swimming and surfacing. I don't know if I would describe it as a runny nose, but a bit of whistling sound. I'd continue to monitor the current symptoms and look out for others.