Urgent Care :: Fungus, Rot, or Water Deposits?

[lovemyturtles]

Hi Everyone,

I have some concerns about my turtle's shell. About two months ago I noticed she had some retained scutes. About a month ago I noticed some flaking and a white powdery appearance on her plastron. Her plastron wasn't improving despite her regular basking routine, so I decided to scrub her shell with betadine and chlorhexidine followed by dry docking. Her plastron has shed extensively but I am still seeing a white and powdery residue. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me, based on the pictures, if her shell looks healthy or not. I have hard water so I am thinking that the residue on her plastron could be mineral deposits. Hopefully someone here can help me figure this out.

My second and bigger concern entails an area on her carapace. While I was using a toothbrush beneath the edge of a raised scute, I pushed too hard and caused premature sloughing. I'm beating myself up over this. As soon as it happened I felt just awful!!! Thankfully, it's a small area (about pea sized) and doesn't look too deep. The area bled a minute or two. This happened about three days ago and I have kept the injury clean and dry since. The area seems to be scabbing over - the once red blood looks brownish and using a magnifying glass I can see what looks like a shiny, hard film growing over the injury. I would like to add that in addition to her injury, the carapace has some hard, shiny, cream colored spots that concern me - I can't tell if the cream colored spots are bone, scar tissue, or natural color patterns.

I'm wondering what I can expect in the way of healing. Is there anything I can do apart from keeping the injury clean and dry? When I can safely introduce her back to her habitat?

I appreciate any suggestions!

P.S. I don't smell any foul odor and I keep her habitat really clean. She lives in a 110 gallon tank with a basking area, uvb lighting, 90 degree basking temp, and 78 degree water temp. I feed her homemade jello shots made with green, leafy veggies. I also feed her carrots, sweet potato, and pellets on occasion. I give her cuttle bone in the tank and I dust her food with calcium powder periodically. I have had her for about four months and acquired her at seven inches long. She came from a bad place and I have been trying to make improvements the best way I know how...

[steve]

My (very limited) experience with a shell breach showed a bit of boney layer that would soon come off, revealing some flesh and a little blood. It would then scab over as it heals. So hopefully that won't be an issue with your turtle.

The retained scutes are pretty bad. When doing the scrub, try focusing on any lifting area. How often are you doing this?

I can't what those white spots are from those pics. If they look a bit spotty and seemingly embedded into the scute, it might be fungus.

How is your tank's water filtration?

[lovemyturtles]

Hi Steve,

I wish the pictures would better clarify exactly what I see. The white discoloration on my turtle's plastron doesn't look spotty but more flaky or scaled. I tried diluted vinegar but to no avail, which tells me the white discoloration is something other than mineral deposits. Your description of fungus resembles what I am seeing. In looking at old scutes from her plastron I have noticed the white discoloration on the underside as well as on newly exposed scutes. The white spots do not appear on her carapace.

I've been cleaning underneath raised scutes on her carapace daily for two weeks. This was originally intended to last for just three days or so but the breach has prolonged the process. The breach appears to be healing. I don't see any inflammation,swelling, or pus. No odor either. Looking at the breach with a magnifying glass and pen light I see a clear, thin layer beginning to form. Maybe keratin????

For filtration I was a Tetra Fauna EX 70 and smaller Tetra Whisper, which together accommodate 100-gallons, the total water volume of the habitat. The Tetra Fauna works to keep the water crystal clear and maintains good flow. I can see to the bottom of the tank daily. I clean out debris with a syphon daily, change filters monthly, and change 10 percent of the water weekly. I usually gut the entire habitat every four to six weeks. I feed her in a separate container to minimize waste and use Nutri Fin at set up. I use the same approach for my other turtle's habitat and that particular turtle has shed twice already in five months.

I don't know about the age of either turtle but the one that has retained scutes seems a bit older based on the color of her shell and the faded red striped around her eyes.

As always, I appreciate your feedback and look forward to hearing from any anyone else on this forum.

Please, don't hesitate to inquire further about this situation. I will gladly provide updates.

Thanks for your help!!!

[lovemyturtles]

Hi Steve (and any other readers),

I've been finding some information about Maracyn and MarOxy. I am wondering if I should consider using either of these products to address the shell issues. I am also wondering if the products are safe for consumption. Any advice/feedback greatly appreciated!

[lovemyturtles]

To Anyone Who Can Help,

I managed to take some better photos today but because the file is too big to post here I posted the pics on photo bucket.

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Another ... /Lundquist

I hope this link works. If not, please let me know what I can do to correct it.

Please offer some feedback about the pics. I am hoping my turtle doesn't have a shell infection (apart from the breach, which obviously needs attention). I would like some guidance regarding my best course of action.

Thanks. Bonnie

[steve]

Normally those abrasive looking scutes will shed off after one or two sheds. However, those are usually the only problem and since there are a few things going on here, I'm not positively sure.

Maracyn helps to fight bacterial infections and might be worth trying but I think the only way to be certain about an infection is with a blood test.

[lovemyturtles]

I have to agree. Drawing any conclusion without diagnostic testing is impossible. I don't feel comfortable fooling around with any kind of treatment other than what I have already tried. Seems risky to me. Until I know more about the situation I think the turtle will benefit most from a shallow paddle pool to allow the breach in healing. My understanding is that to prevent infection, I need to keep that area clean and dry. I haven't touched the area with my finger but yesterday, when I applied some antibiotic cream I palpated softly with a cotton swab. Thankfully the breach and surrounding area feels hard. I peek at the area every day with a pen light and magnifying glass. It's making progress. If it were oozing pus, smelled, or felt soft I would be much more frantic. I do feel this is serious but not critical. Please, feel free to correct my thinking. I wont take offense.

I feel like part of this issue stems from her previous environment. I don't know how long she lived at the pet store but what I remember seeing when my relative bought her was about five mid-sized turtles living in what looked like a 50-gallon aquarium. I don't remember a basking area but I wasn't looking for one. At that time, I thought nothing of it b/c I was ignorant. Now i know first hand about the impact that results from a deficient habitat.

I could be wrong but I feel like if she had a systemic infection then I would be seeing more adverse symptoms in the way of appetite, activity, and stool...

She's active in the water, relaxed when basking, excited about food, eliminates regularly, and seems to have a spark in her eye.

I can see that more of her scutes on her carapace are preparing to shed. They aren't quite ready but lighter in color and peeling up around the edges.

I guess ultimately I am trying to look at the big picture without "freaking out" or over-reacting. Just wanting to respond responsibly as abnormalities arise.

I keep vacillating about the vet. I'm sure that most people would have encouraged me to seek veterinary intervention when she demonstrated respiratory trouble - gaping, wheezing, listing. To my knowledge, she breathed funny as soon as my relative brought her home from the pet store and the problem persisted for two months. That's a long time and neglectful but the neglect resulted from ignorance and misguided information NOT malicious intent.

My point is that when I intervened with proper temps and diet, the situation improved extensively. She made a 360 degree turn around without any antibiotics, which to me is quite remarkable. Same for her wounds - no antibiotics - just topical ointment and cleanliness. It took about two weeks but she recovered. I am hoping that her shell will improve and I think it will but I think it will take some time before things look optimal.

I think her situation warrants attention but I don't consider this a crisis. I hope that makes sense.

[steve]

The piece that came off... was it just scutes or some scute and a thin boney layer?

[lovemyturtles]

Gosh, that is a good question!!! When it came off, it ricocheted out of eye sight. I poked around the room to find it but never did locate it. Go figure. I've been asking myself the same question and really wish I had the answer. As concerned as I am, I have to say that the breach is looking better every day, which allows me wipe some sweat off my brow. I'm thankful that when the scute came off --- when I forced the scute off (INADVERTANTLY) that the injury wasn't deep enough to expose soft tissue deep into the bone. Still, I have learned my lesson and have since used clean and sterile toe nail clippers to remove edges of dead scute that have curled upward. I am only doing this to prevent snagging and to ensure that everything underneath looks good and healthy. I uncovered a few more areas today - those dead scutes are brittle and THICK. She must have missed four sheds, God bless her.

Oddly, what seems to have really helped is a baking soda paste. I mixed up a bit of baking soda with a small amount of water and gently scrubbed it on her. She enjoyed it. She's really laid back anyway - active but not fearful of people. She remained in place for about five minutes. I allowed the paste to dry for about ten minutes then scrubbed it off with a dry toothbrush, careful not to get anything in her mouth, around her eyes, or near the breach. Since scrubbing her with the paste, more of her scutes have lifted around the edges.

Earlier today I decided on some OTC anti-fungal. My gut told me to try it. I found 2% Clotmitrazole and rubbed a thin layer all around her plastron.

I really feel like bacteria would stink like rot or decay. To me, a fungus makes the most sense based on pics and descriptions and based on the fact the she was retaining scutes on her plastron for so long. Her plastron is never exposed to light. It's a perfect home for microbes such as fungus - a warm, dark, and moist breeding ground.

I will continue keeping a watchful eye and keep you updated on her progress. Perhaps my experience will benefit others, who encounter something similar in the future.

Thanks so much for staying in touch! Always good to hear from you.

[lovemyturtles]

Your question prompted me to take another look around the room. I found the missing piece behind a nearby shelf. It's thin, pliable, clean, and translucent. Looks like it was a new scute most likely attached to the dead one on top.

I did exactly what I've been warned NOT to do. Errrrr. My shins have bruises from kicking myself so hard!!!!!

[steve]

I think once the flesh is exposed, it allows marrow to the surface, thereby allowing scar tissue to develop.

What were the results of the Clotmitrazole?

[lovemyturtles]

Just okay. Things looked really good after the first application but progress slowed from there. The scaly, white stuff isn't as prevelent but it still exists. I don't regret trying an OTC but at this point I really think the turtle needs something stronger and faster acting AND I need peace of mind. It's clear to me that something isn't quite right and my goal is to identify exactly what is wrong and addrss it. At this point, I need veterinary intervention and as you've mentioned some blood work. I'm not sure why she hasn't shed. To my knowledge, her habitat and basking patterns should allow for it. I can only reason that it has something to do with her history and/or an underlying condition that I hope to remedy. I can't in good conscience turn a blind eye to the red flags I am seeing. On a more positive note, she is tolerating everything very well. She still eats like a champ and appears content. I'll bet she misses her home though and I really want to replace her into habitat ASAP. Just waiting on the breach and a vet to give me the okay.

By the way, when I tranport her I am wondering about the best way to do it. I heard of using a rubbermaid container with a top but none of my plastic containers have tops, except the 50-gallon and it's really too bulky for the car. I think she'll end up sloshing around too much in that. I'm wondering if I can use a cooler lined with towels. I was also thinking about using some warm packs under the towels...yes,no???

[devilduck]

You can just use a rubber maid container lined with news papers or towels to transport. Just make sure it stays warm.

[lovemyturtles]

I don't have a top for the rubbermaid - she wont be warm enough. That's why I was asking about the cooler. It has a thicker wall and a top...

[steve]

How long is the drive?