Urgent Care :: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need help

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:44 pm   Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need help

First of all, let me say – I know it’s time for a Herp Vet. I am stuck at work today, and this weekend, and I have to cover a co-workers vacation next week - so I cannot even take a day off for a while. I don’t know when I’ll be able to locate a vet, make an appointment, and get the turtles there. I’m looking for any help, advice, or whatever in the meantime.

I posted a thread about a week ago. I had placed 3 turtles in the same tank on an emergency short term basis. I thought I had a biting problem when I saw turtle snap at another’s neck after having previously snapped at toes. I checked out the “victim turtle” and noted white spots on it’s neck that I thought to be wounds from attacks. Here’s that thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28456

SO – I immediately separated them, and started dry docking the injured turtle, letting her dry out for an hour or so, applying Neosporin to the wounds on her neck, then keeping her dry docked another hour or so to allow the ointment to work. Honestly, I haven’t given her that many treatments – I think 3 or 4 times in the last week. I was feeling like I need to be doing more of the same, but now I just don’t know. It’s getting worse. There was one large spot on the back of her neck and two smaller ones adjacent to it, but with green turtle skin between the spots. Now, two of the spot have “connected” where I know there was green skin in between before.

There is a thread in this section, this week, titled “Skin abrasion” (link: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28339 ) What I’m dealing with looks a lot like that, but a lot worse.

I’m starting to think that maybe it’s caused by retracting her head into her shell? Here’s another thing, these are “rescue” turtles and they had a very bad life before – long story, but they were kept very wrong. The turtle in question had terrible retained scutes. It took almost a year of proper keeping before she started to shed. She is in the process of shedding still, and not done yet. She’s almost 7” and I’m sure she has literally never shed until recently. Right behind her neck is a funny little scute about a ¼” wide that sticks strait out about ¼” or more. She seems to have shed the maginal scutes to the right and the left leaving just that one small narrow retained scute sticking WAY out like dagger.

To further complicate things – her tank mate also has a white spot on the back of her neck now. She could also have retained marginal scutes, she came from the same place, but I thought she had nicely completed her shed. Her shell looks great (so does the other’s, where it has shed). Could it still be biting – maybe a habbit these two long time tank mates picked up from their temporary tank mate? I have been watching and haven’t observed any biting or aggression.

Being an unidentified skin condition that is now showing up with the tank mate, I have to wonder about communicable disease. Is that a possibility?

It looks very bad. It looks like all of the skin sluffing off the back of her neck, leaving sickly large white patches with pink flesh visible in the center of the wounds. I will try to take my work camera home at lunch and snap some pictures so that I could post them to this thread this afternoon. I will fill out the “usual questions” and post that to this thread as well.

I’m sorry about the long post, but I felt it was all relevant and I am just out of ideas, and worried. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:50 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

How big is your turtle? - 6.5"
How long have you had it? - almost 2 years

What is the water temperature? - 74 deg
Did you use a thermometer? - yes
Are you using a water heater? - yes
How much water is in there? - 45 gallons
Are you using a water conditioner? - no
Are you using any filtration? - yes

What is the basking temperature? - 90 deg
Is there a basking light? - yes
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? - yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of? - 2 (stacked) zoo-med floating turtle docks - largest size
Is there a UVB light? - yes

What have you been trying to feed it? - red lettuce, pellets, cuttle bone
When was the last time your turtle ate? - yesterday

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? - 75 gallon
Is the tank near a window? - No
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? - No

Have you read the Basic Care section? - Yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? - Yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms? - The whole story is in the first post (above)


Pictures forthcoming.
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:47 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

put silver sulfadine ointment on the spots and try to keep them dry for several hours a day till she sheds the skute and if the spots are persistent and are still there after a while seek a vet
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:17 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Thanks for the reply... I just got some pics, and I'd like people to tell me what they think this is. I described it as best as I could above - but I'm really not sure I know what is causing this. Still looking for opinions.

First pic is Lavern - poor baby, she's my favorite turtle. She's been through so much, and just look how pretty she is going to be when she finally finishes shedding those horrible retained scutes!

The wounds and the (possibly) problematic scute are readily apparent. Is that scute normal, or retained?

here she is:
Image
DSC03077
The second pic is Shirley - she already finished a shed (I think she finished) and is a pretty turtle in her own right... never had a problem, but just recently noticed she has a white spot on her neck too. Just one, and the pics are bad - but if you look real close you'll see a white spot. It's not nearly as bad as Lavern’s.
Image
DSC03083

Please help - I might sound like I have some idea what's going on, but I don't know. I don't know nearly what I thought I did and I am completely at a loss here. Please help these girls.

For now - I will look into that Silver Sulfadine cream. Where do I get that? Should I be dry docking longer than a few hours?

Last thing... when I put her in "dry dock" she still scrapes her wounds against her shell a whole bunch, possibly irritating the wounds? What do I do about that?
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:12 am   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Hi TurtleKeeper48, in most cases where the scute is overgrown and rubs against the head is the nuchal scute, the one in the middle. From the pictures, that shouldn't be the cause.

I don't think a disease will be that aggressive and only attack a specific area on the skin. Are the others housed together? If so, then it can simply be one biting the other. Is the previous aggressor the one without any marks? Is he still housed with any turtles?

And for dry docking, do it overnight in a very dark but warm area (75F) and they'll sleep better. Leave towels and they might even burrow under them.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:59 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Hi Steve. Thanks for your comments.
steve wrote:Are the others housed together? Is the previous aggressor the one without any marks? Is he still housed with any turtles?

These two are Lavern and Shirley. They have lived in the same tank as long as we’ve had them (about 2 years) and however long the previous owner had them. They never had any type of problem with each other.

We put them together with a third turtle, Rosa, on a short term emergency basis when our basement flooded and I couldn’t find enough floor space to set up two tanks. Rosa was the aggressor. We have separated them and put Lavern and Shirley back in their tank (together), keeping Rosa in her own. Rosa does not have any marks on her and is back to living alone and doing great.
steve wrote:If so, then it can simply be one biting the other.

I’m hoping that’s the case. I'm hoping it was all Rosa and Lavern and Shirley didn;t get the idea to start biting eachother. :( Would these types of bites be something that might start to look a bit worse before it starts to look better? That’s my biggest concern now is not seeing any improvement, in fact, it is looking worse.

steve wrote:And for dry docking, do it overnight in a very dark but warm area (75F) and they'll sleep better. Leave towels and they might even burrow under them.

Thanks for this. I’m going to work on setting up a nice dry dock area today, I haven’t had a good dry dock area for them to spend a lot of time in. I’m going to try to fix that today. I’m thinking something like a kiddie pool, or if that doesn’t work a large rubbermade tote. I’ll have to get another heat lamp so I can set the temp at 75. I’ll give them something to hide in and some towels. Does that sound good?

My turtles have been on a schedule for a while – the lights go off at 10:00 PM and they come on at 8:00 AM. They usually start to go to sleep at about 10:01 every night (it’s so cute, they know their bed time)

I’m thinking I should take them out of water by 9:00 PM so I can apply ointment around 10:00 PM and then put them to bed in dry dock overnight, returning them to water at about 7:00 AM. Does that schedule sound okay? Should I continue with the Neosporin, or look into finding that Silver Sulfadine ointment?

Sorry to ask so many questions.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:58 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

From that first pic, to me, the nuchal scute could very well be irritating the area when the neck is retracted and extended---the marginals to either side of it look like they curve in a bit, and it looks like the nuchal sticks out more than they do. Is there a bit of translucent scute beyond the yellow area? If so, it's likely that that scute hasn't shed yet.

When you're dry tanking, minimize the time that the turtle would be active---treating in the evening and keeping the turtle in the dark overnight to sleep (under a towel, etc.) would be good so she's calm and not moving around. I'd see that herp vet, who could determine if it's infected and what to put on it. If the scute is excessively sharp, that could also be dealt with.
"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." -Antoine de Saint Exupery-
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:51 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

marisa wrote:Is there a bit of translucent scute beyond the yellow area?

Yes, there is. I didn't do such a good job of getting it to show up in the photo, so it's kind of hard to tell.

marisa wrote:If so, it's likely that that scute hasn't shed yet.

I don't think it has.

marisa wrote: When you're dry tanking, minimize the time that the turtle would be active---treating in the evening and keeping the turtle in the dark overnight to sleep (under a towel, etc.) would be good so she's calm and not moving around. I'd see that herp vet, who could determine if it's infected and what to put on it. If the scute is excessively sharp, that could also be dealt with.

Thanks for these tips. I'm going home now to set up a better dry dock for them to spend the night in. I'm also going to talk to my wife and see if I can get her to take them to the vet before I can.
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:49 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

TurtleKeeper48 wrote:I’m thinking I should take them out of water by 9:00 PM so I can apply ointment around 10:00 PM and then put them to bed in dry dock overnight, returning them to water at about 7:00 AM. Does that schedule sound okay? Should I continue with the Neosporin, or look into finding that Silver Sulfadine ointment?


That schedule is fine. You can probably even take them out earlier, once it's dark they usually go to sleep mode quickly. Neosporin is good, but Silver Sulfadiazine is better. You probably won't need to use either long once the healing begins. Silver Sulfadiazine is a bit greasy, so don't use too much and there will probably be some residue you need to get off in the morning.
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:09 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Thanks Steve and Marisa for all of the good info and continued support.

I made a pretty nice dry dock with a large tote, some towels, a cover and a night time heat light that maintains temp right about 74 degrees (same as their water, and as close to 75 as I could get – so I hope that’s fine)

I dry docked her for 5 hours yesterday afternoon and applied Neosporin, then I let her go for a swim and get a drink for about 2 hours, then dry docked her over night. I’ll dry dock her over night again tonight and until this improves.

AND – I think it may be improving, but I’m not sure yet.

When I apply the ointment, she sits on my lap and when she realizes that I’m trying to get the ointment on the wounds, she totally cooperates and kind of rubs her wounds against my finger. She’ll sit there and let me rub ointment into it. I’m thinking it feels good for her.

Anyway, yesterday for the first time – the wounds felt kind of scabby. I don’t think I was dry docking enough for the first week or so, and I think she may have been forming scabs that were getting soaked and falling off in the water. (I saw some of this happening when she took her evening swim for a few hours.)

Hopefully we’re on the right track now. Next weekend I finally have a day off (first since all started) so unless it is clearly looking a lot better, we’ll go see a vet and get it checked out just to be sure.

Thank you.
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:55 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Sounds like you and they are doing great. Thanks for the updates.
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:54 pm   Re: Help – skin problems getting worse, not better. We need

Glad to hear things are under control. :D
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